August 29, 2023 • 45 mins
Are we being brainwashed by cop shows? Daily Show producer Madeleine Kuhns and writer Ashton Womack join Roy to look at the legacy and popularity of policing onscreen, and how it shapes our relationship with police in the real world.
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Original air date: September 21, 2021
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, I tell you one thing. I put my career
on the line for this. They can take my badge
and take my gun and call me a loose cannon.
But if I have to break down every law in
the books, then damn it, I'm gonna do it. Because
I'm doing this podcast, because this is beyond the scenes.
Damn it. This is where we dig into your favorite
(00:21):
segments from the Daily Show and we don't stop until
we solve them, no matter what the costs. And if
you haven't guessed by now, we're talking about police and
how they're portrayed on TV shows. It's called copaganda. It's
a piece we did about cop shows that have dominated
TV for decades and how the portrayal of policing affects
(00:43):
our understandings of law enforcement in the real world.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Roll the tape police dramas are iconic, hugely popular, and
now under intense fire from activists who say these shows
far too readily portray cops as good and trustworthy hand
while undermining real life claims of systemic racism and abuse.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Police not only consulting these shows, but they're also very
aware that their portrayals impact public perception, and they have
a vested interest in making sure that portrayal is positive.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Yes, believe it or not, watching cop shows makes a
lot of people see the police as infallible, and honestly,
I don't blame any of these people. I mean, I'll
admit a lot of my perceptions about reality have been
shaped by TV as well. Part of the reason it's
easy for TV shows to convince people that cops are
always right and always good at their jobs is because
(01:36):
that's what we want to believe. I think we can
all agree that we want people who are going to
enforce laws fairly and effectively so that we don't have
to do it ourselves.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I know I don't want to do it now. To
talk a little bit more about this topic, we're going
to talk with the people to help make this piece
come together. Too hard. Those detectives who brought this piece
to life, and they live for the Daily Show, bad
on their chess. They both own Blue Bloods on VHS
and DVD because they're diehards. One of our Deep Dot producers,
(02:08):
Medaling Coons, Hello to you, Hello, Hello, and one of
our writers, Ashton womec Ashton, how you're doing Ashton? I
heard that you own the whole box set of law
and order.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
LA. Yes, I do only to learn what not to
do and how to avoid the cops. That's what I
study it.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So for the people who missed this segment, could you all,
I'll start with you, Madeline, tell me what this segment
is all about.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
The segment's called copaganda, and a lot of that is
just like it's looking at like just the prevalence of
cop shows I think if you think of I mean,
one is like the most watched genre of like all TV.
Like it's the most popular genre of like all TV shows,
which is crazy, and just like the absolute prevalence of
that on TV, and like how that actually influences our
opinions in real life about law enforcement because, as we
(02:58):
mentioned in the piece, like just like like most Americans
really have such little interactions with police, you know, I
think it's it's like twenty percent of like all Americans,
so like we really don't see the police side often,
and yet we have this like deep familiarity with like
law enforcement and like the policing system in a way
that doesn't quite make sense unless you take into the
count like the hours and hours of TV watched and
(03:20):
like the media that we consume.
Speaker 5 (03:21):
That statistic you just said was crazy. All Americans, of
all black people have definitely dealt.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
With the cops. It's like, and we're only like thirteen
percent of the country.
Speaker 6 (03:40):
Like, where are you stuff forward.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Lucky individual, Ashton? Did copaganda work on you growing up
in the sense of you see these shows where you know,
essentially the police are always right, they do whatever it
takes to get the suspect, and you, the viewer understand
I had to break that rule otherwise that bad guy
would have gotten away with the thing. How much did
(04:04):
television influence your views and opinions of the police.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
It never influenced my opinions of the police, because I
had actual experience with the police. So when you you
can show me something on TV all day, but if
I go outside and experience a whole different reality, I'm
just disconnected. I don't believe what you're showing me. So
I always grew up. That's why, Like you said earlier,
it was a joke, But I genuinely did not watch
like my mom watched NYPD New York Undercover. That was
(04:31):
like probably the one show.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, that's the one they got black people we watched that.
I don't want to age myself. For yeah, I'm in
Paul key Mama's age. It was Malik Yoba many like,
wasn't the Puerto Rico guy. I forgot to help with that.
But in the last act of every episode, they would
play music and it would be a live artist. So
(05:00):
so you got to see black music and culture. But
we also took them down and put them into a
system that they ain't gonna treat them fairly, but they
get in front of a judge.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
That was my experience with watching TV or watching cops
on the TV. I would watch cops and obviously rooted
for the people running. I'm like, come on, dog, jump
that gate, jump the gate, make it.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And that was when you watched cup shows to root
for the criminal. Yes, I've had, you know, my own experiences.
You know, I've I've said this, you know, I haven't
said this often in life, but I've had a gun
pulled on me five times. Four of them were police officers. Jesus,
to the point where if just a regular dude on
(05:41):
the street pulled a gun on me, I liked them
odds better. You're almost like, show me a badge in
a in a in a weird way, because you know,
there are certain cops that are gonna follow the rules
and they the training worked fine, But the likelihood of
me running into a cop that is nervous is higher
(06:04):
than me running into a dude off the corner who's nervous.
Because if you just a regular ass dude, robbing somebody
is one of the boldest things that you've already decided
that nothing can happen to you. So within that boldness, oddly,
I believe is some level of decorum.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
You know, like there's honor amongst thieves, but not amongst cops.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
A parent like that's I'm just saying. If you told
me your gun was gonna get pulled on me in tomorrow,
and I got to choose random dude on subway track
or police officer, I would choose random dude on subway track.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
And that's a huge testament to policing in America, especially
for black people. That's crazy that you feel that way.
You should be calling you should be calling the cops
on the guy, but instead you have to If you
call the cops, they gonna come and pull the gun
on you. They a't gonna think the robber is still
in the he's still here and then.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Like and you bring up say, like Roy, you bring
up a really good point about being like the nervousness
of police, because I do think like a huge theme
and like cop like cop shows and procedurals is showing
like how cops are not only like superhuman, but like
they're making these split second decisions like with a very
cool head and a most like moving away that's very
confident on screen. And so people kind of use that
(07:20):
and transpose that. I think when they think of cops
in real life, like they don't understand that there is
like someone who is being nervous and not you know,
like it kind of it pushes that idea that like
the decision that the cops are making is always right
on TV because they're not hesitating.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
The one thing that I've always found ridiculous in any
police show or any police movie is when they comment
be or a regular person's vehicle to keep the car
chase going, like the Robert takes a motorcycle and then
the cop Like Bad Boys Too is the best example
where it was on the test drive and they snatched
Dan Marino afterca It's like, come on, you wouldn't do.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Well stop the cop pop the trunk, get out, get in.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I'm in the middle of a shell.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
We'll have to pull my gun. Oh ship, damn Marino,
what's uping? Back up?
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Then?
Speaker 5 (08:08):
Hey, you're the truth. Whatever you need officers, Hey, Marcus,
that's damn Marina. Hey back up. Let me know how
it rides. Oh, he gonna test drive the shit out this.
And it's always like dramatic. They're like holding like some
groceries and they'll be like what then they throw up
some like orange.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
It's good.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
It's the flashing of the badge or not. They're just
like police and you know, like they're just like, who
is this?
Speaker 6 (08:28):
Who is this random dude?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I'll say this, The conversation around copaganda almost ruined Bad
Boys three for me. I'm glad I got that one
in just for a while. That came out January, the
same year of George Floyd, and like I was like, who,
I'm glad I got my trilogy. Now I can stop
watching them movies.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
What you can retire now.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
We waited. We're like, we're not going to do that
to you.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
What made you all want to talk about this piece?
Like just walking through the genesis of this conversation in
the building. Did this start in the writer's winging Ashton,
or did this start over in research in the producer
winging with you, Madeline?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
So before so I'm in a like a smaller department
called where called like the Deep Dive department. So you know,
we do a lot of like looking into a lot
of like non headline issues. Ashton is our very successful alumnus.
So last year, back when he was in Deep Dive,
this was about it was like the end of June,
like the last week of June is like when this aired.
So a few weeks before that, when we were talking
(09:34):
about just the rise of like the Black Lives Matter
protests that were springing up like across the country and
the world after George Floyd was murdered. It was watching
over and over again, you know, both just watching the
news but also you know, for work, just watching the
overwhelmingly peaceful protests and then seeing the police brutality that
was like being brought into that peaceful space and just
(09:57):
seeing those images over and over again, and the videos
of people who are very young, you know, but almost
always black, and and Ashton can talk more about this, uh,
but you know one thing that I think got me
started to think about this issue is just or this
piece was more just because you know, Ashton was protesting
(10:18):
and the way that he was beaten by police officers
and like seeing that happened so close to home in
a way, you know, made me really it got me
thinking a lot of just again, as one of the
not one of the twenty one percent of Americans who've
ever really had uh run ins or police encounters, and
just how looking at what was in front of me
(10:40):
and how unmemorable the few and police like police encounters
I've had in real life are that I just don't remember,
Like I don't remember them that much because they're not
They're not consequential in that way. So it was really
trying to like get to the bottom of that.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Let's stay with that for a second. Ashton Madeline says
she can't even remember most of her encounters with the police.
Walk me through some of yours.
Speaker 5 (11:03):
H I don't even know where to start. I mean,
even as like growing up and you grew up in
a black neighborhood, it's just ingrained you. I can't even
remember the time when I ever thought like police were
heroes or good. It's always been a negative interaction with
my community to the point where, like you play cops
and robbers, don't nobody want to be the cops. Everybody's like, shit,
(11:25):
I'm a robber. You got no one you saw when
you see someone coming in and harassing your community, you don't.
You don't see them as the good guys. I remember,
I've had plenty of interactions when I was younger in Texas.
I got arrested for weed twice when I was a teenager. Everybody,
you know, obviously it's proven black, brown, white kids kids
(11:46):
are doing smoking weed at the same exact a rate.
There's no there's no race doing doing it more. Yet
I would hear these insane stories about how my friends
would get pulled over and the cops be like, oh,
you're good, Oh you're good. But if they just smell
anything around us, we were going to jail. We had
to deal with because we would go with we were
in probation. We had to deal with getting put into
(12:07):
the cycle that keeps people in jail, especially black people.
Telling you, going, yeah, exactly, you get put in a
situation just because of the color of your skin to
be in a cycle of the carceral system. You have
to you go to probation. They say you need to
find a job and pay these and pay these fees,
or you're going back to jails. Well, if I don't
(12:28):
have no job and I can't I can't pay. If
I can't pay, I'm going to jail. I've had a
lot of interactions with the police, with the carceral system.
It's kind of designed for me to have those interactions.
It's clear as day that I was dealing with a
racist system, and so were all my friends around you.
And it's not until hearing stories like Madelines that it's like, oh,
(12:50):
you really had a different experience. Dealing with the police
like that made up a large part of my teenage
youth and stress and my mom disappointed in me and
me thinking it plays that it has plays deeper effects
on you because you don't think you're gonna be able
to succeed in life. You feel like you're you've been
thrown away, and that what that's that's I'm sure I'm
not the only person who feels as.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
When we come back to Beyond the Scenes, we're gonna
talk a lot more about copaganda. And I know both
of y'all got a favorite cop show. So don't even
sit here in front like you don't start thinking. Now I've.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
Only one, Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Don't lie, you're asking us one.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
I was like, how can we how can we.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Choose the one that I love I consider one of
the best television series of all time, And I'm so
ashamed when I tell y'all the premise of the show,
Ashton is going to be furious. Well, Madeline, I'm gonna
start with you. We're talking about copaganda. Copaganda which is
the deliberate or unintentional portrayal of police and a positive
(13:54):
light to thus make law enforcement look very agreeable and
as if our criminal justice is working for everyone when
we know that it isn't. But even when we know that,
I still think we all have guilty pleasures. There's foods
that you're not supposed to eat that you eat you
know they're bad for you. So we all know there's
TV shows that are kind of bad for your mind
(14:16):
that just steal sometimes. Check out, Madeline, what is your
favorite cop show of all time?
Speaker 6 (14:22):
I mean, I will say the one that.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
It's not one of the typical procedurals in terms of
like hops, but criminal minds, which is all about like
the FBI, like profiling serial killers. It follows like the
same exact formula and the template and like, I don't know.
It was on all the time when I was in
grad school. I was in Ireland and like the only
TV channel that we got was just like criminal Criminal Minds,
(14:48):
like during the break and I was like, well, this
is what I'm watching, like, and I just got so
addicted to that show.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
But it was also really crazy. I was just like, oh, wow, we're.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Exporting like the way that we see law enforcement and
policing to like the rest of the world. So but yeah, no,
I watch like all of it and it's not good
but huguely problematic.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Ashton, I already know your answer. You watched New York Undercover,
but that's only because Malik Yoba was in it in
iced tea. I grew up watching TJ. Hooker Syndication. By
that point, William Shatton are just as a tough LA detective,
always in a foot chase with action music playing and
(15:30):
all of that nineties early arts. New York Undercover and
then Third Watch was a show that I love. It
wasn't extremely popular, but I thought it was well done.
But my goat TV show. I have four TV shows
that I think are just cannon in this television universe,
(15:52):
The Wire, The Sopranos, Breaking Back, and The Shield.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Oh okay, yeah, we definitely want that.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
You got violent there at the end.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, now when we talk compaganda, and this is gonna
dovetail into my question about your you all's research into
researching this this this segment. But The Shield, for those
who never saw it, it was a show about a
dirty cop unit. It was based on the Rampart unit
(16:27):
in LAPD that was just running rough shot over people
in the nineties. But in the show, they were a
dirty unit, but they sometimes do the wrong thing for
the right I'm a dirty cop and I steal, but
I still to pay for the private school for my
autistic child. See like me? Right, No, I hate you.
(16:51):
There was a cop that was investigating the unit, and
this is the pilot of The Shield. I'm not even
giving away the series. The first episode there's a clean
cop investigating the dirty cops and they kill him and
the rest of the series is the lengths that they
go to cover up that crime.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Oh wow, this kind of sounds good.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
It's one of the best television shows ever written.
Speaker 6 (17:12):
But I mean it was a big rise of like
the antihero. That's like he was like.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Vic Mackian's on the soprano were the only two that existed.
Those are the only two characters that existed where I
should hate you, but you do good things because he
would also do dirty stuff and solve the crime of
the week, but he would break all of the rules
to oh, my daughter has been kidnapped and it was
a Colombian, so then he would go into the hood
and chop off eight Colombians. My bad, that was the
(17:39):
wrong Colombian. Anyway, we found.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
There, but we found her in the Yeah, it's very
like ends justify means.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I bring all of that up to ask you all,
in the process of researching this, what were some of
the common themes that you saw through all of this
in terms of the programming.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
There's like three on the top of my head that
come to mind, and like the first one, well, the
first one was that like all these like all these
cop shows, just like how many there are, and like
just like the format of the procedural of like solving
a crime every week, it really makes it seem like
violent crime is like increasing or like this like reality
that we live in where and in fact, like violent
crime has been like trending downward over time.
Speaker 6 (18:18):
So it's just like that this idea of just.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Like seeing crime all the time makes us like deeply
fearful and makes like having a police force necessary, which
i you know, is not the way that you need
to view the police force, especially if you're looking at
like funding issues and things like that. The second one
was more like like this like weird like color blind
magical world where there's like a lot of black and
brown people in roles and like judges and like other
(18:42):
police officers. So it's like there's race, but racism doesn't exist.
So it's just like you're like, oh, so that's okay
that he's chasing that guy because it's not about a
systemic problem or like if they do deal with race.
It's like a very special episode and it's all about
like one black cop dude. I mean, he's like he
was mean to me, and it's like must be hard
for you, you know, and it's just like, oh, but.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
It's like that, why are season four?
Speaker 6 (19:02):
Yeah, it's like the whole yeah, exactly, Like it's that
one guy, not a system. It's okay.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
We're moving on and we're never gonna mention this again.
Just like this idea of like I did what I
had to do, you know, like this idea that like
the way that we have normalized like the abuse, like
the intimidation, the like boatloads of like illegal surveillance that
these shows do, and just like we normalize that feeling,
and so it's excused and justified, and we think like
the cops have to do it to be good, and
(19:28):
so because the police are the good guys that like,
it's almost just like even when they're bad, like the
system only works because they the police break the rules.
Like that's the only way the justice system works. They
can't just break protocol because we think it's right at
the time and expect to get away with it.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
Normally, i'd agree with you, but in this case, I'd
rather the rest for forgiveness and permission.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
As you well know, we will need a warrant to
search the house.
Speaker 6 (19:49):
Agent Callen, these are exigen circumstances. You let me worry
about the legal ramifications.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
If I could have been the rules a little bit
to get a bad guy off the street, I'm going
to do it. You would too, forget ones forget the rules.
It's on us to catch you.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
That was cool, although what that guy was actually saying
is the Constitution is pussies.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
I guess the things that stuck out to me as
well it was like what they didn't show. It was
like it was like the say, the people who wrote
these TV shows were the same people who wrote Florida's
critical race theory laws. They're like, we're taking all the
black stuff out. You just read you don't even pay
attention to black stuff. And it's like, that's what I
paid attention to. Having the cops, they're just trying to
trying to make them lovable when I just never saw
(20:37):
a lovable cop, And I was like, who are these
who are these down to earth humane cops? And why
am I not getting any of them? That was that
was what I noticed the most, And like like Mad's
was saying, it was how they portray these cops as
these like just anti heroes, and and what kind of
really did stick out was like seeing them break the
(20:58):
law even in their own system, Like they couldn't say,
like like I was saying, say if they needed something
out of evidence locker, they would break the law in
the police department. They would they didn't follow the law anywhere.
They'd be like, let me, I need something out of here,
out of the evidence locker, and they'd be like, sorry,
I'm not allowed to and then they smash their head
against the evidence locker and then the evidence locker opens
up and they're like, guess I didn't need you anyway,
(21:18):
and they were yeah, it's like you broke the law
in the department. And it's like to me, what it
was upsetting to me because it's like, well, it's you're
normalizing this behavior and you're allowed. You're we were basically
giving sanction to for officers to be that violent and
that like aggressive even throughout the entire time.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I'm so sorry I pitched the sashion because we had
to watch so much, like we had to watch so
many episodes, like.
Speaker 6 (21:45):
We watched we watched a lot of TV.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
It was brutal.
Speaker 6 (21:48):
A lot of TV was super bad.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
There was just like some crazy, crazy, like crazy episodes
that I was like, how there was a Blue Boods
episode where a cop like literally he chases I suspect
who is black into an apartment building, like pulls out
his gun and is like stop free you know, freezer whatever.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
The guy on the second floor throws.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Himself out of the window, lands on the ground, and
then he like breaks his arm. So he's like police brutality,
police brutality, And I was like, this does not but
it was like a three minute long, you know scene,
so like you can't we couldn't use it. But I
was just like, who sees this and thinks that's what
police brutality is?
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Brutality?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Wait?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Wait, don't shoot shut your mouth, Hey, back inside the apartment.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Tenor apple chance against all, I promise.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
He puts me on the window, he just hold down,
He'll just stop moving.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
No brutality. Give me some examples of stuff that you
wish it made it into the piece, but didn't because
of the time.
Speaker 5 (23:08):
The kid's piece, the kids portion. What's that the propaganda
that gets shown to children, uh and you know, slowly
indoctrinates them into believing, uh that you know, everything is
good with the policing in America and getting them to
which I mean, you don't want to like, which is
it is a fine line of walk. You don't want
to introduce uh, negative thoughts around policing, but you do
(23:32):
want to be honest to your kids about what policing
and America is currently and so. But we had a
vast uh vast PR system targeted towards children for police
paw patrol UH, which I think is the most insidious
one because it's like cops are I mean, dogs are
definitely racist, and then now they're cops. There's doubly rate.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Dogs.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
What dogs dog.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Met the paw patrol because I've met them all patrol
live pre COVID.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
I don't know, man, dogs don't see color, and I
don't trust that. I'm like, bro, you should.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
See all of the Paul Patrol was German shepherds, and
you was a black person would feel some sort of
way based on the German shepherd's relationship with the black
community and the sixties. But I'm not gonna let you
blank it all not all dogs. What about reality TV?
Where does reality television fit into playing a role? There
was a television show that used to come on True
TV in the early Arts, this is when reality TV
(24:35):
was really wild. The show was called Bait Car, and
Bait Car was a show where they would have a
nice car and leave the engine running and just leave
it in a low income neighborhood and then some random
dumb ass would hop an ooh the keys in it here? Yeah,
and they would hop in it and then the kill
(24:56):
switch would be activated. They would be locked in the
car and then the cops will pull up take them
to jail for car death.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Okay, these guys are right up on the car.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Now they're in the car drivers getting in stand by.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
A big car heading north.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Okay, the kill switch stalls the engine and locks up
the windows and doors.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Right are.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
How we're going to do.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
It's like the police were creating scenarios and tramping instead
of going to find like a show like that. And
I'll be honest, you're right. It was entertaining Ashton because
the funny in it was watching people trying to figure
out how to get out.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
The car.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
And you and like for me, when I would watch
a bag car, I would always I know what the
outcome is gonna be. I know every single time they
going to jail, But I still be like, come on, brother,
It's like rooting for the Washington Generals versus the Harlem
Globe trotters. You know, they go lose, but they got
one fan in me, like.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, it just never really hit until you know, you know,
a year or two later where you're just like you knew, like, well,
should the police be doing this anyways? Entertaining? Then years
later you go.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
Wait, like that's really messed up.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Reality TV is almost like its own, you know, own
piece in itself because it's just so expansive. So we
really didn't have time to fit that into the piece.
But like we did, we did look into a lot
of reality TV and it's deeply disturbing to watch, and
it's also just I learned a lot more about the
show Cops though, which I think everyone watched whether they
(26:48):
realized it or not.
Speaker 6 (26:49):
It was on everywhere.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
It wasn't all bad man. It's like sometimes I got
to watch my favorite clips from Yeah, I got to
watch some of my favorite clips from Cops. There's one
clip on the I remember watching. It was like this
like one one lady she went to a cop and
she was like this lady, this drug dealer. I was
trying to buy drugs and she ain't sell me the drugs.
And then the cop was like, what, show me who
it is. She went to the lady and she was like, bam,
(27:15):
did you not sell her drugs? And she was like
first off, officer I'm not a drug dealer, I'm a prostitute.
I'm and then we were like what what had So
there's classic clips. Don't get it wrong on Cops. Got
some you know, good good stuff. But also it's a
terrible show. It's a terrible show.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
What I didn't know actually before doing this piece was
just like the history behind Cops and how it was
really used as this like pr vehicle. So it started
to like get big after it was like a year
or two after the the police beating of Rodney King.
Is like the show Cops was invited by They got
permission to film in La and it was specifically to
rehab the image of the LAPD to make them like
(27:57):
give like receive better coverage, and like that became the
Cops models.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
They know what they're doing. They're rehabbing their image. Like
when Justin Bieber did the roast to Justin Bieber and
it's like, oh, this is to rehab his image. That's
literally ye, that's of of the San Diego Police Department.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Cops did get taken off the air during the George
Floyd uprising in this country. At least no new episodes.
I've heard rumors that it's starting to seek back into
syndication in certain places. But I want after the break,
I want to talk to you all about the future
of copaganda and where we go from here now that
we as a country are actually aware of what the
(28:34):
hell is going on. Also, we need to talk about
while these rappers end up being cops at some point,
ll cooj a cop on n cis ice tea is
a cop, the ice cube is a cop and ride along.
We need to talk about that transition from f the
police to how much you're gonna pay me an episode?
Speaker 5 (28:56):
Can I apply to the police.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. No,
I want to talk about where can we go from
here in changing public perceptions through entertainment, Because I'm gonna
be honest. I have two cops in my family, Chicago
suburbs and a Mississippi State trooper. A lot of copwork
is mundane. It's weird. It's talking to a prostitute who
(29:24):
supposedly sold me drugs, but she's not even a drug dealer.
It's that type of stuff. A television show's job is
to tell a story, to wrap you up in the
story with drama and conflict, So you need conflict. If
you want to show to be good, if you're telling
the truth about policing, it's probably gonna be born. You
(29:48):
need some I give you a perfect example, Ashton The
Shields season five, Anthony Anderson was the villain. He had
killed a girl and hid the body and they spend
in the whole season trying to find the body of
this girl. Vic Mackie finds out that Anthony Anderson's son
is in prison in a minimum security jail, so Vic
(30:12):
Mackie has his son transferred to maximum security where all
of Anthony Anderson's street gang enemies are incarcerated. Knowing what
they'll do to a son, and Vic Mackie used the
threat of prison rate and traumatizing a nineteen year old
to find the body of the dead girl and bring
(30:35):
the family justice.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Can we all vote right now for the shield Dramatization
podcast just by Broy I would listen to that.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Was you not enthralled by that story? That's how you
get leverage on a criminal. I don't even story women,
but I know that that's not realistic. But are there
any show like because to me, there are aspects of
police work that I don't know anything about and that
I do to a degree help inform me. I will
(31:07):
say that Law and Order SVU, Buy and Large was
a great part of my education on just how terrible
agender men are. And that's a show. It's not an
easy show to watch, even with Iced Tea with his perm.
I feel like that's why they have Iced Tea in
that show, is to make it more digestible for black people,
(31:30):
because you know, it's so serious and heavy, and then
Iced t just walks around.
Speaker 5 (31:34):
Man, he did it.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Man, we gotta take him down.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
WHOA is that a body over there? It's like, yeah,
that's a body. That's a body over there. Yeah, no,
I want that is like one of the things that
we were running into, not running into, but we discovered
is and we kind of already knew, is that a
lot of what they show is violence. They over sensationalized,
(31:58):
sensationalized the violence aspect of police work, and they minimize
the actual police the work of the police work, which
when you hear these protests, you hear about it all
the time. You hear that like the police are overwork,
they have too many jobs. There should be mental health
counselors going out for certain uh to deal with certain
problems instead of sending a police officer. That's why you know,
(32:21):
a large percentage of police shootings end up being a disabled,
mentally disabled or handicapped people because they just they only
know how to not they only know how, but they're
dealing with problems that shouldn't you need a hammer, You
probably should give to other people. But it is an
over sensationalization, over sensationalization of police violence, and I think
(32:43):
you definitely got to start.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
There, Magdalin. Do these shows have a responsibility to be
socially conscious or to just be entertaining.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I mean, I think there's there's a space between there
where it's like if you're going to try to push
like a realistic genre like policing doesn't exist in a
vacuum in our society. It has like very real implications.
I mean, I will say, watching SVU, which is a
show that I loved and I loved Olivia Benson, it
did make me feel like I would be kidnapped at
any time anywhere in the city, because that's what happens
(33:13):
at the beginning of the episode.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
Of like every episode is like this woman has been kidnapped.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
They will find they will beat up the suspect until
they get her location and they will save her just
in time. But yeah, I mean I think you know,
one of the things one of the reports that really
helped this piece was a Color of Change did this
like massive study of police procedurals and they released this
like really larger port. It was called like normalizing injustice.
(33:38):
And one of the stats they found, which I think Ashton,
you can talk more about this being a black writer,
you know, in often a very white space, but eighty
one percent of the writers on these scripted TV shows
are white, so you don't have the demographics reflecting the reality.
So I mean, maybe it's less of an outright responsibility,
(33:58):
but like if they're going to try to tell story worries,
it's like you don't have enough voices in the room
to actually tell that story in.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
To tell it balanced and tell it properly. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
So I think that's why we're seeing a lot of these, uh,
a lot of these storyline I know.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I know ViacomCBS, who's a proud parent company of the
Daily Show and the Beyond the Scenes podcast, Viacom CBS
and other networks they've hired, you know, a lot of
consulting groups to police their portrayal of people and the
criminal justice system in their program. And it's almost like
they've like companies have had to hire like it's not
enough to just cancel cops and say you're not going
(34:33):
to show cops anymore, but now you need someone to
come in and audit your whole situation to find where
your racial blind spots are.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
And it's you know, you know all love the paramount,
but it's crazy that you have to do that when
you can just hire people of color or people who've
experienced those things. You wouldn't need a consulting group if
you you know, have if this country's done the right
thing and put people and allow people to tell their
own stories, I'd.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Say just a especially like if no harm was coming
of this, like maybe they don't have a social responsibility,
but like we've already we've seen that these shows are
like actively shaping our perceptions of police right in a
way that doesn't match reality, and that might be deeply
harmful for certain people in society who have a lot
less power. So yeah, I think there's I think something
has to change and has to change just as much
(35:21):
behind the camera is in front of it.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
So I think one of the things we did learn
while researching this was how we probably said it already,
but how these shows literally they created the perspective of
of kind of black people in policing and why it
was okay to be overly brutal to black people in
America because they're watching these police shows and the criminals.
Though there was this notion of having like the cop
(35:48):
shows would have black police chiefs and all that you
would still have the criminals be overwhelmingly black or pocs,
and it kind of justified in America's mind the brutality
and that it needs to happen. And that is like
that that is the problem when someone else has control
over your image. They have the control over my image.
(36:08):
They can do with it what they will, and they
put that image in other people's minds, and now I
have to deal with the consequences of what they've put
in people's minds.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Actually, excuse me, Oh, go ahead, go ahead, No.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I just I had a question for you because you
mentioned that you had police officers in your family, and
I'm wondering how they're affected by watching cop shows, and like,
how if that changed your perception of watching cop shows
because I didn't. I mean, I don't have any law
enforcement in my family, so it really was like being
raised by Olivia Benson.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Talking to them taught me the mundaneness, the the overwhelming
mundaneness of police work, which I think feeds into the
when something, oh you got some action, it feeds into
that sub something. This is everything that I've been trained
to stop because this is the one thing that I
(36:58):
should always be careful about it. Like when I saw
Bad Boys Too. The thing that's always made me laugh
about police work in general on television is after they
shoot somebody and then they just going about the rest
of the case, like you're supposed to get pulled off
and take fourteen days and go see the sycles. Yeah,
you're supposed to go do all. Like Bad Boys Too,
they blew up the whole freeway.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
And there was no paperwork. They're just like, great, there
was no paperwork.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
The job boys, keep it the case.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
You destroyed Q sixteen billion dollars worth the city damage,
and god damn it, you do it again, and like
they get pat on the back.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
They went to Cuba without clearance from the government to
see Will Smith's girlfriend and blew up imagine, and so
they Bad Boys three should have just been them coming
back from suspension for the last fifteen years. I have
a black question for you, Madeline. Just sit this one down.
Speaker 6 (37:56):
And I was like, please don't say me, Please don't
say me.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I thought he was gonna Denzel's Oscar and training day
proud moment or no, as a dirty cop.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
I mean, obviously, I think it's very nuanced proud moment
because it wasn't it like one of the first times
a black actor was able to get be awarded that
at that hype. But it had to Yeah, but it
had to be for being a crooked dirty cop. I mean,
they could have gave that to Carl Winslow. He you know,
he should have been Why why you gotta start with
(38:30):
the dirty cop? Carl Winslow was a great cop and
he taught America good values and he didn't get awarded
at all. So I don't have.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
To say as far as cop begana goes, Carl Winslow
really did come home with a good attitude for somebody
who was on the Chicago PD. Carl Winslow was Chicago PD.
Speaker 5 (38:48):
Yeah, and Erkle was his worst problem. Now, the GDS
down the street you worried about the wrong?
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Are these changes enough? It's what's happening. Is that enough?
Or is there more that needs to happen? And if so,
what else can we do? Or do we just wait
and see? Do we just blacken up these writers' rooms,
blacken up these diversity panels and consulting higher black consultants
and see where that gets us in a couple of
(39:16):
years or the more drastic things that you all would
like to see happen in the in the short term.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
I think it's not enough. But I don't think it's enough.
I think we are skimming the surface of how we
are truthfully telling the nations the relationship we have, the
America has with the police. I don't think there's any
story out there that's actually actively portraying how current modern
day America America's relationship with the police. That not that
(39:43):
being said, that doesn't mean to go on the other
opposite end and just be like all cops are better
to you know, have a show called a cab and
then just you know, just show the negativity and only
show just the worst, the worseness of cops, because that's
not the case either. But we have to find a
way to tell the true story of policing in America.
(40:07):
I know it's entertainment. I know it's TV. I know
it's entertainment, but for the past like thirty years, it
was maybe longer than that, it has not told the
real story and it's had a negative consequent consequence on
many Americans.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Madeline, what stories surrounding policing in our criminal justice system
would you like to see told?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
I mean, I agree with Ashton, I think that we
haven't really seen like a real portrayal, so I do
think showing that. I also think they're I mean, there
just needs to be more space for other stories that
doesn't like that don't only tie black people to policing
as well, right, Like we can't only have stories of tragedy,
you know, I think like showing the full spectrum of humanity,
(40:47):
which is often not shown on police procedurals, Like you
just need space for like other shows as well. But again,
a lot of that change happens, like you know, in
the writer's room. I mean, I guess, I mean, I'm
kind of curious now, like because you're both actors, Like
would you want to be would you be in a
police procedural, like would you take a role as.
Speaker 6 (41:05):
A cop or if I want to No, No, I'm
just because of just like how like I guess that's
like if it was changed. I mean, I just I don't.
I don't. I think it has to change a lot,
but I don't know exactly how.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
I had a sitcom that was originally in development here
at Comedy Central where I played a probation officer, and
for me, I wanted to show the redemption side of
the criminal justice system because I feel like that's something
that we don't see enough of most shows that involve
the criminal the legal system. It's either the cop, it's
(41:40):
the case, or it's jail, but there's never anything on
the other side or that. I would say the only
show in the last couple of years to even come
close to that is The Last Og on TBS, and
that's really more of the first two seasons where we
see Tracy Morgan's character going to a halfway house, and
that's really not about the criminal justice system as much
(42:02):
as that show is more about one man's journey back
from all of that. It's not really peeling back the
layers of probation and the bullshit and everything you go
through and keep this job, but you got a job,
but the job is out of your travel district, and
the judge won't give you clearance to go to the
next county to work. So now you're in violation because
(42:22):
your two payments behind on your restitution. Like they don't
really get into that on the last OG. But that's
definitely you know, that's definitely been a show that I've
enjoyed seeing kind of explore just a different part of
that world.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
They do that in Atlanta. There's like scenes him in Atlanta.
In the TV show Atlanta Earned or childis Gambino's character.
He gets arrested, and you keep throughout the season you
see him still having to go to probation office. He
calls out, oh wow, I have Oh if I don't pay,
I'm going to jail, and people, I don't think a
lot of Americans recognize that when you get arrested, I
(43:00):
mean specifically, especially for something as inconsequential as marijuana. There's
millions of Americans dealing with have been put in a
system where they their their life is now a jinga
a jingo table, and one false move can have that
entire thing come crumbling. Down, and that's the situation you're putting.
You're putting a situation where your future is literally at jeopardy,
(43:24):
and that pressure you feel it's not just dealing with
police brutality. The brutality continues after you get like after
you come out of jail and trying to get a job,
trying to vote, trying to change laws. There's so many
things that you still have to deal with and the
pressure is constantly on you.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
So yeah, I want to see more stories like Ashton's story, because,
like you were saying, it's very like what you're saying
is like I've you grew up around a lot of
people who had very similar experiences like you, but yet
that's not really reflected, like the truth of that is
not reflected in on screen.
Speaker 6 (43:54):
So those are the stories that absolutely need telling.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
An innocent kid, Ashton's an innocent kid minding his business,
but he knows the guy that sold the drugs that
ode the girl, and Detective Vic Mackie pools he takes
Ashton and chokes.
Speaker 6 (44:14):
The mine prostitute.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, I'm not a drug dealer right now, but if
I take this crack cocaine and put it in your pocket,
that's ten years. Where's t Baker? Tell me where tea
Bake is?
Speaker 5 (44:28):
I ain't telling you ship Copper.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
That's all the time we have for today. I'm pretty
sure we fixed Copper game the special thanks to you, Madeline,
and special thanks to you Ashton for going beyond the
scenes with me today. Hopefully we've taken you beyond the scenes.
Take care, everybody. I'm gonna go rewatch the Shield now.
I'm sorry. It's a good show.
Speaker 5 (44:52):
I think I am too, honestly, Yeah, nobody go watch
the Shield.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
I think that's he went on a date and Forest. Look,
I know the music is playing. I know it's supposed
to shut up now, I don't care. Forest Whittaker was
internal affairs and was investigating Vic Mackie. Vic Mackie went
on a date with his ex wife just to break
him down, whole world. That's not even spoiling it.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
That's a dirty cop, dirty mackinn, and dirty Coppin.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Wet's see y'all next week. Listen to The Daily Show
Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, or
wherever you get your podcasts. I wanna go even further
beyond the scenes. Check out the video version of beyond
the scenes on the Daily Show's YouTube page.
Well, I tell you one thing. I put my career
on the line for this. They can take my badge
and take my gun and call me a loose cannon.
But if I have to break down every law in
the books, then damn it, I'm gonna do it. Because
I'm doing this podcast, because this is beyond the scenes.
Damn it. This is where we dig into your favorite
(00:21):
segments from the Daily Show and we don't stop until
we solve them, no matter what the costs. And if
you haven't guessed by now, we're talking about police and
how they're portrayed on TV shows. It's called copaganda. It's
a piece we did about cop shows that have dominated
TV for decades and how the portrayal of policing affects
(00:43):
our understandings of law enforcement in the real world.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Roll the tape police dramas are iconic, hugely popular, and
now under intense fire from activists who say these shows
far too readily portray cops as good and trustworthy hand
while undermining real life claims of systemic racism and abuse.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Police not only consulting these shows, but they're also very
aware that their portrayals impact public perception, and they have
a vested interest in making sure that portrayal is positive.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Yes, believe it or not, watching cop shows makes a
lot of people see the police as infallible, and honestly,
I don't blame any of these people. I mean, I'll
admit a lot of my perceptions about reality have been
shaped by TV as well. Part of the reason it's
easy for TV shows to convince people that cops are
always right and always good at their jobs is because
(01:36):
that's what we want to believe. I think we can
all agree that we want people who are going to
enforce laws fairly and effectively so that we don't have
to do it ourselves.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I know I don't want to do it now. To
talk a little bit more about this topic, we're going
to talk with the people to help make this piece
come together. Too hard. Those detectives who brought this piece
to life, and they live for the Daily Show, bad
on their chess. They both own Blue Bloods on VHS
and DVD because they're diehards. One of our Deep Dot producers,
(02:08):
Medaling Coons, Hello to you, Hello, Hello, and one of
our writers, Ashton womec Ashton, how you're doing Ashton? I
heard that you own the whole box set of law
and order.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
LA. Yes, I do only to learn what not to
do and how to avoid the cops. That's what I
study it.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So for the people who missed this segment, could you all,
I'll start with you, Madeline, tell me what this segment
is all about.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
The segment's called copaganda, and a lot of that is
just like it's looking at like just the prevalence of
cop shows I think if you think of I mean,
one is like the most watched genre of like all TV.
Like it's the most popular genre of like all TV shows,
which is crazy, and just like the absolute prevalence of
that on TV, and like how that actually influences our
opinions in real life about law enforcement because, as we
(02:58):
mentioned in the piece, like just like like most Americans
really have such little interactions with police, you know, I
think it's it's like twenty percent of like all Americans,
so like we really don't see the police side often,
and yet we have this like deep familiarity with like
law enforcement and like the policing system in a way
that doesn't quite make sense unless you take into the
count like the hours and hours of TV watched and
(03:20):
like the media that we consume.
Speaker 5 (03:21):
That statistic you just said was crazy. All Americans, of
all black people have definitely dealt.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
With the cops. It's like, and we're only like thirteen
percent of the country.
Speaker 6 (03:40):
Like, where are you stuff forward.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Lucky individual, Ashton? Did copaganda work on you growing up
in the sense of you see these shows where you know,
essentially the police are always right, they do whatever it
takes to get the suspect, and you, the viewer understand
I had to break that rule otherwise that bad guy
would have gotten away with the thing. How much did
(04:04):
television influence your views and opinions of the police.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
It never influenced my opinions of the police, because I
had actual experience with the police. So when you you
can show me something on TV all day, but if
I go outside and experience a whole different reality, I'm
just disconnected. I don't believe what you're showing me. So
I always grew up. That's why, Like you said earlier,
it was a joke, But I genuinely did not watch
like my mom watched NYPD New York Undercover. That was
(04:31):
like probably the one show.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, that's the one they got black people we watched that.
I don't want to age myself. For yeah, I'm in
Paul key Mama's age. It was Malik Yoba many like,
wasn't the Puerto Rico guy. I forgot to help with that.
But in the last act of every episode, they would
play music and it would be a live artist. So
(05:00):
so you got to see black music and culture. But
we also took them down and put them into a
system that they ain't gonna treat them fairly, but they
get in front of a judge.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
That was my experience with watching TV or watching cops
on the TV. I would watch cops and obviously rooted
for the people running. I'm like, come on, dog, jump
that gate, jump the gate, make it.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And that was when you watched cup shows to root
for the criminal. Yes, I've had, you know, my own experiences.
You know, I've I've said this, you know, I haven't
said this often in life, but I've had a gun
pulled on me five times. Four of them were police officers. Jesus,
to the point where if just a regular dude on
(05:41):
the street pulled a gun on me, I liked them
odds better. You're almost like, show me a badge in
a in a in a weird way, because you know,
there are certain cops that are gonna follow the rules
and they the training worked fine, But the likelihood of
me running into a cop that is nervous is higher
(06:04):
than me running into a dude off the corner who's nervous.
Because if you just a regular ass dude, robbing somebody
is one of the boldest things that you've already decided
that nothing can happen to you. So within that boldness, oddly,
I believe is some level of decorum.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
You know, like there's honor amongst thieves, but not amongst cops.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
A parent like that's I'm just saying. If you told
me your gun was gonna get pulled on me in tomorrow,
and I got to choose random dude on subway track
or police officer, I would choose random dude on subway track.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
And that's a huge testament to policing in America, especially
for black people. That's crazy that you feel that way.
You should be calling you should be calling the cops
on the guy, but instead you have to If you
call the cops, they gonna come and pull the gun
on you. They a't gonna think the robber is still
in the he's still here and then.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Like and you bring up say, like Roy, you bring
up a really good point about being like the nervousness
of police, because I do think like a huge theme
and like cop like cop shows and procedurals is showing
like how cops are not only like superhuman, but like
they're making these split second decisions like with a very
cool head and a most like moving away that's very
confident on screen. And so people kind of use that
(07:20):
and transpose that. I think when they think of cops
in real life, like they don't understand that there is
like someone who is being nervous and not you know,
like it kind of it pushes that idea that like
the decision that the cops are making is always right
on TV because they're not hesitating.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
The one thing that I've always found ridiculous in any
police show or any police movie is when they comment
be or a regular person's vehicle to keep the car
chase going, like the Robert takes a motorcycle and then
the cop Like Bad Boys Too is the best example
where it was on the test drive and they snatched
Dan Marino afterca It's like, come on, you wouldn't do.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Well stop the cop pop the trunk, get out, get in.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I'm in the middle of a shell.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
We'll have to pull my gun. Oh ship, damn Marino,
what's uping? Back up?
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Then?
Speaker 5 (08:08):
Hey, you're the truth. Whatever you need officers, Hey, Marcus,
that's damn Marina. Hey back up. Let me know how
it rides. Oh, he gonna test drive the shit out this.
And it's always like dramatic. They're like holding like some
groceries and they'll be like what then they throw up
some like orange.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
It's good.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
It's the flashing of the badge or not. They're just
like police and you know, like they're just like, who
is this?
Speaker 6 (08:28):
Who is this random dude?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I'll say this, The conversation around copaganda almost ruined Bad
Boys three for me. I'm glad I got that one
in just for a while. That came out January, the
same year of George Floyd, and like I was like, who,
I'm glad I got my trilogy. Now I can stop
watching them movies.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
What you can retire now.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
We waited. We're like, we're not going to do that
to you.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
What made you all want to talk about this piece?
Like just walking through the genesis of this conversation in
the building. Did this start in the writer's winging Ashton,
or did this start over in research in the producer
winging with you, Madeline?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
So before so I'm in a like a smaller department
called where called like the Deep Dive department. So you know,
we do a lot of like looking into a lot
of like non headline issues. Ashton is our very successful alumnus.
So last year, back when he was in Deep Dive,
this was about it was like the end of June,
like the last week of June is like when this aired.
So a few weeks before that, when we were talking
(09:34):
about just the rise of like the Black Lives Matter
protests that were springing up like across the country and
the world after George Floyd was murdered. It was watching
over and over again, you know, both just watching the
news but also you know, for work, just watching the
overwhelmingly peaceful protests and then seeing the police brutality that
was like being brought into that peaceful space and just
(09:57):
seeing those images over and over again, and the videos
of people who are very young, you know, but almost
always black, and and Ashton can talk more about this, uh,
but you know one thing that I think got me
started to think about this issue is just or this
piece was more just because you know, Ashton was protesting
(10:18):
and the way that he was beaten by police officers
and like seeing that happened so close to home in
a way, you know, made me really it got me
thinking a lot of just again, as one of the
not one of the twenty one percent of Americans who've
ever really had uh run ins or police encounters, and
just how looking at what was in front of me
(10:40):
and how unmemorable the few and police like police encounters
I've had in real life are that I just don't remember,
Like I don't remember them that much because they're not
They're not consequential in that way. So it was really
trying to like get to the bottom of that.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Let's stay with that for a second. Ashton Madeline says
she can't even remember most of her encounters with the police.
Walk me through some of yours.
Speaker 5 (11:03):
H I don't even know where to start. I mean,
even as like growing up and you grew up in
a black neighborhood, it's just ingrained you. I can't even
remember the time when I ever thought like police were
heroes or good. It's always been a negative interaction with
my community to the point where, like you play cops
and robbers, don't nobody want to be the cops. Everybody's like, shit,
(11:25):
I'm a robber. You got no one you saw when
you see someone coming in and harassing your community, you don't.
You don't see them as the good guys. I remember,
I've had plenty of interactions when I was younger in Texas.
I got arrested for weed twice when I was a teenager. Everybody,
you know, obviously it's proven black, brown, white kids kids
(11:46):
are doing smoking weed at the same exact a rate.
There's no there's no race doing doing it more. Yet
I would hear these insane stories about how my friends
would get pulled over and the cops be like, oh,
you're good, Oh you're good. But if they just smell
anything around us, we were going to jail. We had
to deal with because we would go with we were
in probation. We had to deal with getting put into
(12:07):
the cycle that keeps people in jail, especially black people.
Telling you, going, yeah, exactly, you get put in a
situation just because of the color of your skin to
be in a cycle of the carceral system. You have
to you go to probation. They say you need to
find a job and pay these and pay these fees,
or you're going back to jails. Well, if I don't
(12:28):
have no job and I can't I can't pay. If
I can't pay, I'm going to jail. I've had a
lot of interactions with the police, with the carceral system.
It's kind of designed for me to have those interactions.
It's clear as day that I was dealing with a
racist system, and so were all my friends around you.
And it's not until hearing stories like Madelines that it's like, oh,
(12:50):
you really had a different experience. Dealing with the police
like that made up a large part of my teenage
youth and stress and my mom disappointed in me and
me thinking it plays that it has plays deeper effects
on you because you don't think you're gonna be able
to succeed in life. You feel like you're you've been
thrown away, and that what that's that's I'm sure I'm
not the only person who feels as.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
When we come back to Beyond the Scenes, we're gonna
talk a lot more about copaganda. And I know both
of y'all got a favorite cop show. So don't even
sit here in front like you don't start thinking. Now I've.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
Only one, Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Don't lie, you're asking us one.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
I was like, how can we how can we.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Choose the one that I love I consider one of
the best television series of all time, And I'm so
ashamed when I tell y'all the premise of the show,
Ashton is going to be furious. Well, Madeline, I'm gonna
start with you. We're talking about copaganda. Copaganda which is
the deliberate or unintentional portrayal of police and a positive
(13:54):
light to thus make law enforcement look very agreeable and
as if our criminal justice is working for everyone when
we know that it isn't. But even when we know that,
I still think we all have guilty pleasures. There's foods
that you're not supposed to eat that you eat you
know they're bad for you. So we all know there's
TV shows that are kind of bad for your mind
(14:16):
that just steal sometimes. Check out, Madeline, what is your
favorite cop show of all time?
Speaker 6 (14:22):
I mean, I will say the one that.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
It's not one of the typical procedurals in terms of
like hops, but criminal minds, which is all about like
the FBI, like profiling serial killers. It follows like the
same exact formula and the template and like, I don't know.
It was on all the time when I was in
grad school. I was in Ireland and like the only
TV channel that we got was just like criminal Criminal Minds,
(14:48):
like during the break and I was like, well, this
is what I'm watching, like, and I just got so
addicted to that show.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
But it was also really crazy. I was just like, oh, wow, we're.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Exporting like the way that we see law enforcement and
policing to like the rest of the world. So but yeah, no,
I watch like all of it and it's not good
but huguely problematic.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Ashton, I already know your answer. You watched New York Undercover,
but that's only because Malik Yoba was in it in
iced tea. I grew up watching TJ. Hooker Syndication. By
that point, William Shatton are just as a tough LA detective,
always in a foot chase with action music playing and
(15:30):
all of that nineties early arts. New York Undercover and
then Third Watch was a show that I love. It
wasn't extremely popular, but I thought it was well done.
But my goat TV show. I have four TV shows
that I think are just cannon in this television universe,
(15:52):
The Wire, The Sopranos, Breaking Back, and The Shield.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Oh okay, yeah, we definitely want that.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
You got violent there at the end.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, now when we talk compaganda, and this is gonna
dovetail into my question about your you all's research into
researching this this this segment. But The Shield, for those
who never saw it, it was a show about a
dirty cop unit. It was based on the Rampart unit
(16:27):
in LAPD that was just running rough shot over people
in the nineties. But in the show, they were a
dirty unit, but they sometimes do the wrong thing for
the right I'm a dirty cop and I steal, but
I still to pay for the private school for my
autistic child. See like me? Right, No, I hate you.
(16:51):
There was a cop that was investigating the unit, and
this is the pilot of The Shield. I'm not even
giving away the series. The first episode there's a clean
cop investigating the dirty cops and they kill him and
the rest of the series is the lengths that they
go to cover up that crime.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Oh wow, this kind of sounds good.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
It's one of the best television shows ever written.
Speaker 6 (17:12):
But I mean it was a big rise of like
the antihero. That's like he was like.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Vic Mackian's on the soprano were the only two that existed.
Those are the only two characters that existed where I
should hate you, but you do good things because he
would also do dirty stuff and solve the crime of
the week, but he would break all of the rules
to oh, my daughter has been kidnapped and it was
a Colombian, so then he would go into the hood
and chop off eight Colombians. My bad, that was the
(17:39):
wrong Colombian. Anyway, we found.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
There, but we found her in the Yeah, it's very
like ends justify means.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I bring all of that up to ask you all,
in the process of researching this, what were some of
the common themes that you saw through all of this
in terms of the programming.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
There's like three on the top of my head that
come to mind, and like the first one, well, the
first one was that like all these like all these
cop shows, just like how many there are, and like
just like the format of the procedural of like solving
a crime every week, it really makes it seem like
violent crime is like increasing or like this like reality
that we live in where and in fact, like violent
crime has been like trending downward over time.
Speaker 6 (18:18):
So it's just like that this idea of just.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Like seeing crime all the time makes us like deeply
fearful and makes like having a police force necessary, which
i you know, is not the way that you need
to view the police force, especially if you're looking at
like funding issues and things like that. The second one
was more like like this like weird like color blind
magical world where there's like a lot of black and
brown people in roles and like judges and like other
(18:42):
police officers. So it's like there's race, but racism doesn't exist.
So it's just like you're like, oh, so that's okay
that he's chasing that guy because it's not about a
systemic problem or like if they do deal with race.
It's like a very special episode and it's all about
like one black cop dude. I mean, he's like he
was mean to me, and it's like must be hard
for you, you know, and it's just like, oh, but.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
It's like that, why are season four?
Speaker 6 (19:02):
Yeah, it's like the whole yeah, exactly, Like it's that
one guy, not a system. It's okay.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
We're moving on and we're never gonna mention this again.
Just like this idea of like I did what I
had to do, you know, like this idea that like
the way that we have normalized like the abuse, like
the intimidation, the like boatloads of like illegal surveillance that
these shows do, and just like we normalize that feeling,
and so it's excused and justified, and we think like
the cops have to do it to be good, and
(19:28):
so because the police are the good guys that like,
it's almost just like even when they're bad, like the
system only works because they the police break the rules.
Like that's the only way the justice system works. They
can't just break protocol because we think it's right at
the time and expect to get away with it.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
Normally, i'd agree with you, but in this case, I'd
rather the rest for forgiveness and permission.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
As you well know, we will need a warrant to
search the house.
Speaker 6 (19:49):
Agent Callen, these are exigen circumstances. You let me worry
about the legal ramifications.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
If I could have been the rules a little bit
to get a bad guy off the street, I'm going
to do it. You would too, forget ones forget the rules.
It's on us to catch you.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
That was cool, although what that guy was actually saying
is the Constitution is pussies.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
I guess the things that stuck out to me as
well it was like what they didn't show. It was
like it was like the say, the people who wrote
these TV shows were the same people who wrote Florida's
critical race theory laws. They're like, we're taking all the
black stuff out. You just read you don't even pay
attention to black stuff. And it's like, that's what I
paid attention to. Having the cops, they're just trying to
trying to make them lovable when I just never saw
(20:37):
a lovable cop, And I was like, who are these
who are these down to earth humane cops? And why
am I not getting any of them? That was that
was what I noticed the most, And like like Mad's
was saying, it was how they portray these cops as
these like just anti heroes, and and what kind of
really did stick out was like seeing them break the
(20:58):
law even in their own system, Like they couldn't say,
like like I was saying, say if they needed something
out of evidence locker, they would break the law in
the police department. They would they didn't follow the law anywhere.
They'd be like, let me, I need something out of here,
out of the evidence locker, and they'd be like, sorry,
I'm not allowed to and then they smash their head
against the evidence locker and then the evidence locker opens
up and they're like, guess I didn't need you anyway,
(21:18):
and they were yeah, it's like you broke the law
in the department. And it's like to me, what it
was upsetting to me because it's like, well, it's you're
normalizing this behavior and you're allowed. You're we were basically
giving sanction to for officers to be that violent and
that like aggressive even throughout the entire time.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I'm so sorry I pitched the sashion because we had
to watch so much, like we had to watch so
many episodes, like.
Speaker 6 (21:45):
We watched we watched a lot of TV.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
It was brutal.
Speaker 6 (21:48):
A lot of TV was super bad.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
There was just like some crazy, crazy, like crazy episodes
that I was like, how there was a Blue Boods
episode where a cop like literally he chases I suspect
who is black into an apartment building, like pulls out
his gun and is like stop free you know, freezer whatever.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
The guy on the second floor throws.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Himself out of the window, lands on the ground, and
then he like breaks his arm. So he's like police brutality,
police brutality, And I was like, this does not but
it was like a three minute long, you know scene,
so like you can't we couldn't use it. But I
was just like, who sees this and thinks that's what
police brutality is?
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Brutality?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Wait?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Wait, don't shoot shut your mouth, Hey, back inside the apartment.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Tenor apple chance against all, I promise.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
He puts me on the window, he just hold down,
He'll just stop moving.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
No brutality. Give me some examples of stuff that you
wish it made it into the piece, but didn't because
of the time.
Speaker 5 (23:08):
The kid's piece, the kids portion. What's that the propaganda
that gets shown to children, uh and you know, slowly
indoctrinates them into believing, uh that you know, everything is
good with the policing in America and getting them to
which I mean, you don't want to like, which is
it is a fine line of walk. You don't want
to introduce uh, negative thoughts around policing, but you do
(23:32):
want to be honest to your kids about what policing
and America is currently and so. But we had a
vast uh vast PR system targeted towards children for police
paw patrol UH, which I think is the most insidious
one because it's like cops are I mean, dogs are
definitely racist, and then now they're cops. There's doubly rate.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Dogs.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
What dogs dog.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Met the paw patrol because I've met them all patrol
live pre COVID.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
I don't know, man, dogs don't see color, and I
don't trust that. I'm like, bro, you should.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
See all of the Paul Patrol was German shepherds, and
you was a black person would feel some sort of
way based on the German shepherd's relationship with the black
community and the sixties. But I'm not gonna let you
blank it all not all dogs. What about reality TV?
Where does reality television fit into playing a role? There
was a television show that used to come on True
TV in the early Arts, this is when reality TV
(24:35):
was really wild. The show was called Bait Car, and
Bait Car was a show where they would have a
nice car and leave the engine running and just leave
it in a low income neighborhood and then some random
dumb ass would hop an ooh the keys in it here? Yeah,
and they would hop in it and then the kill
(24:56):
switch would be activated. They would be locked in the
car and then the cops will pull up take them
to jail for car death.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
Okay, these guys are right up on the car.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Now they're in the car drivers getting in stand by.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
A big car heading north.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Okay, the kill switch stalls the engine and locks up
the windows and doors.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Right are.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
How we're going to do.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
It's like the police were creating scenarios and tramping instead
of going to find like a show like that. And
I'll be honest, you're right. It was entertaining Ashton because
the funny in it was watching people trying to figure
out how to get out.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
The car.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
And you and like for me, when I would watch
a bag car, I would always I know what the
outcome is gonna be. I know every single time they
going to jail, But I still be like, come on, brother,
It's like rooting for the Washington Generals versus the Harlem
Globe trotters. You know, they go lose, but they got
one fan in me, like.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, it just never really hit until you know, you know,
a year or two later where you're just like you knew, like, well,
should the police be doing this anyways? Entertaining? Then years
later you go.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
Wait, like that's really messed up.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Reality TV is almost like its own, you know, own
piece in itself because it's just so expansive. So we
really didn't have time to fit that into the piece.
But like we did, we did look into a lot
of reality TV and it's deeply disturbing to watch, and
it's also just I learned a lot more about the
show Cops though, which I think everyone watched whether they
(26:48):
realized it or not.
Speaker 6 (26:49):
It was on everywhere.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
It wasn't all bad man. It's like sometimes I got
to watch my favorite clips from Yeah, I got to
watch some of my favorite clips from Cops. There's one
clip on the I remember watching. It was like this
like one one lady she went to a cop and
she was like this lady, this drug dealer. I was
trying to buy drugs and she ain't sell me the drugs.
And then the cop was like, what, show me who
it is. She went to the lady and she was like, bam,
(27:15):
did you not sell her drugs? And she was like
first off, officer I'm not a drug dealer, I'm a prostitute.
I'm and then we were like what what had So
there's classic clips. Don't get it wrong on Cops. Got
some you know, good good stuff. But also it's a
terrible show. It's a terrible show.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
What I didn't know actually before doing this piece was
just like the history behind Cops and how it was
really used as this like pr vehicle. So it started
to like get big after it was like a year
or two after the the police beating of Rodney King.
Is like the show Cops was invited by They got
permission to film in La and it was specifically to
rehab the image of the LAPD to make them like
(27:57):
give like receive better coverage, and like that became the
Cops models.
Speaker 5 (28:01):
They know what they're doing. They're rehabbing their image. Like
when Justin Bieber did the roast to Justin Bieber and
it's like, oh, this is to rehab his image. That's
literally ye, that's of of the San Diego Police Department.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Cops did get taken off the air during the George
Floyd uprising in this country. At least no new episodes.
I've heard rumors that it's starting to seek back into
syndication in certain places. But I want after the break,
I want to talk to you all about the future
of copaganda and where we go from here now that
we as a country are actually aware of what the
(28:34):
hell is going on. Also, we need to talk about
while these rappers end up being cops at some point,
ll cooj a cop on n cis ice tea is
a cop, the ice cube is a cop and ride along.
We need to talk about that transition from f the
police to how much you're gonna pay me an episode?
Speaker 5 (28:56):
Can I apply to the police.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. No,
I want to talk about where can we go from
here in changing public perceptions through entertainment, Because I'm gonna
be honest. I have two cops in my family, Chicago
suburbs and a Mississippi State trooper. A lot of copwork
is mundane. It's weird. It's talking to a prostitute who
(29:24):
supposedly sold me drugs, but she's not even a drug dealer.
It's that type of stuff. A television show's job is
to tell a story, to wrap you up in the
story with drama and conflict, So you need conflict. If
you want to show to be good, if you're telling
the truth about policing, it's probably gonna be born. You
(29:48):
need some I give you a perfect example, Ashton The
Shields season five, Anthony Anderson was the villain. He had
killed a girl and hid the body and they spend
in the whole season trying to find the body of
this girl. Vic Mackie finds out that Anthony Anderson's son
is in prison in a minimum security jail, so Vic
(30:12):
Mackie has his son transferred to maximum security where all
of Anthony Anderson's street gang enemies are incarcerated. Knowing what
they'll do to a son, and Vic Mackie used the
threat of prison rate and traumatizing a nineteen year old
to find the body of the dead girl and bring
(30:35):
the family justice.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Can we all vote right now for the shield Dramatization
podcast just by Broy I would listen to that.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Was you not enthralled by that story? That's how you
get leverage on a criminal. I don't even story women,
but I know that that's not realistic. But are there
any show like because to me, there are aspects of
police work that I don't know anything about and that
I do to a degree help inform me. I will
(31:07):
say that Law and Order SVU, Buy and Large was
a great part of my education on just how terrible
agender men are. And that's a show. It's not an
easy show to watch, even with Iced Tea with his perm.
I feel like that's why they have Iced Tea in
that show, is to make it more digestible for black people,
(31:30):
because you know, it's so serious and heavy, and then
Iced t just walks around.
Speaker 5 (31:34):
Man, he did it.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Man, we gotta take him down.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
WHOA is that a body over there? It's like, yeah,
that's a body. That's a body over there. Yeah, no,
I want that is like one of the things that
we were running into, not running into, but we discovered
is and we kind of already knew, is that a
lot of what they show is violence. They over sensationalized,
(31:58):
sensationalized the violence aspect of police work, and they minimize
the actual police the work of the police work, which
when you hear these protests, you hear about it all
the time. You hear that like the police are overwork,
they have too many jobs. There should be mental health
counselors going out for certain uh to deal with certain
problems instead of sending a police officer. That's why you know,
(32:21):
a large percentage of police shootings end up being a disabled,
mentally disabled or handicapped people because they just they only
know how to not they only know how, but they're
dealing with problems that shouldn't you need a hammer, You
probably should give to other people. But it is an
over sensationalization, over sensationalization of police violence, and I think
(32:43):
you definitely got to start.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
There, Magdalin. Do these shows have a responsibility to be
socially conscious or to just be entertaining.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I mean, I think there's there's a space between there
where it's like if you're going to try to push
like a realistic genre like policing doesn't exist in a
vacuum in our society. It has like very real implications.
I mean, I will say, watching SVU, which is a
show that I loved and I loved Olivia Benson, it
did make me feel like I would be kidnapped at
any time anywhere in the city, because that's what happens
(33:13):
at the beginning of the episode.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
Of like every episode is like this woman has been kidnapped.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
They will find they will beat up the suspect until
they get her location and they will save her just
in time. But yeah, I mean I think you know,
one of the things one of the reports that really
helped this piece was a Color of Change did this
like massive study of police procedurals and they released this
like really larger port. It was called like normalizing injustice.
(33:38):
And one of the stats they found, which I think Ashton,
you can talk more about this being a black writer,
you know, in often a very white space, but eighty
one percent of the writers on these scripted TV shows
are white, so you don't have the demographics reflecting the reality.
So I mean, maybe it's less of an outright responsibility,
(33:58):
but like if they're going to try to tell story worries,
it's like you don't have enough voices in the room
to actually tell that story in.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
To tell it balanced and tell it properly. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
So I think that's why we're seeing a lot of these, uh,
a lot of these storyline I know.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
I know ViacomCBS, who's a proud parent company of the
Daily Show and the Beyond the Scenes podcast, Viacom CBS
and other networks they've hired, you know, a lot of
consulting groups to police their portrayal of people and the
criminal justice system in their program. And it's almost like
they've like companies have had to hire like it's not
enough to just cancel cops and say you're not going
(34:33):
to show cops anymore, but now you need someone to
come in and audit your whole situation to find where
your racial blind spots are.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
And it's you know, you know all love the paramount,
but it's crazy that you have to do that when
you can just hire people of color or people who've
experienced those things. You wouldn't need a consulting group if
you you know, have if this country's done the right
thing and put people and allow people to tell their
own stories, I'd.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Say just a especially like if no harm was coming
of this, like maybe they don't have a social responsibility,
but like we've already we've seen that these shows are
like actively shaping our perceptions of police right in a
way that doesn't match reality, and that might be deeply
harmful for certain people in society who have a lot
less power. So yeah, I think there's I think something
has to change and has to change just as much
(35:21):
behind the camera is in front of it.
Speaker 5 (35:23):
So I think one of the things we did learn
while researching this was how we probably said it already,
but how these shows literally they created the perspective of
of kind of black people in policing and why it
was okay to be overly brutal to black people in
America because they're watching these police shows and the criminals.
Though there was this notion of having like the cop
(35:48):
shows would have black police chiefs and all that you
would still have the criminals be overwhelmingly black or pocs,
and it kind of justified in America's mind the brutality
and that it needs to happen. And that is like
that that is the problem when someone else has control
over your image. They have the control over my image.
(36:08):
They can do with it what they will, and they
put that image in other people's minds, and now I
have to deal with the consequences of what they've put
in people's minds.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Actually, excuse me, Oh, go ahead, go ahead, No.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I just I had a question for you because you
mentioned that you had police officers in your family, and
I'm wondering how they're affected by watching cop shows, and like,
how if that changed your perception of watching cop shows
because I didn't. I mean, I don't have any law
enforcement in my family, so it really was like being
raised by Olivia Benson.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Talking to them taught me the mundaneness, the the overwhelming
mundaneness of police work, which I think feeds into the
when something, oh you got some action, it feeds into
that sub something. This is everything that I've been trained
to stop because this is the one thing that I
(36:58):
should always be careful about it. Like when I saw
Bad Boys Too. The thing that's always made me laugh
about police work in general on television is after they
shoot somebody and then they just going about the rest
of the case, like you're supposed to get pulled off
and take fourteen days and go see the sycles. Yeah,
you're supposed to go do all. Like Bad Boys Too,
they blew up the whole freeway.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
And there was no paperwork. They're just like, great, there
was no paperwork.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
The job boys, keep it the case.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
You destroyed Q sixteen billion dollars worth the city damage,
and god damn it, you do it again, and like
they get pat on the back.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
They went to Cuba without clearance from the government to
see Will Smith's girlfriend and blew up imagine, and so
they Bad Boys three should have just been them coming
back from suspension for the last fifteen years. I have
a black question for you, Madeline. Just sit this one down.
Speaker 6 (37:56):
And I was like, please don't say me, Please don't
say me.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I thought he was gonna Denzel's Oscar and training day
proud moment or no, as a dirty cop.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
I mean, obviously, I think it's very nuanced proud moment
because it wasn't it like one of the first times
a black actor was able to get be awarded that
at that hype. But it had to Yeah, but it
had to be for being a crooked dirty cop. I mean,
they could have gave that to Carl Winslow. He you know,
he should have been Why why you gotta start with
(38:30):
the dirty cop? Carl Winslow was a great cop and
he taught America good values and he didn't get awarded
at all. So I don't have.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
To say as far as cop begana goes, Carl Winslow
really did come home with a good attitude for somebody
who was on the Chicago PD. Carl Winslow was Chicago PD.
Speaker 5 (38:48):
Yeah, and Erkle was his worst problem. Now, the GDS
down the street you worried about the wrong?
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Are these changes enough? It's what's happening. Is that enough?
Or is there more that needs to happen? And if so,
what else can we do? Or do we just wait
and see? Do we just blacken up these writers' rooms,
blacken up these diversity panels and consulting higher black consultants
and see where that gets us in a couple of
(39:16):
years or the more drastic things that you all would
like to see happen in the in the short term.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
I think it's not enough. But I don't think it's enough.
I think we are skimming the surface of how we
are truthfully telling the nations the relationship we have, the
America has with the police. I don't think there's any
story out there that's actually actively portraying how current modern
day America America's relationship with the police. That not that
(39:43):
being said, that doesn't mean to go on the other
opposite end and just be like all cops are better
to you know, have a show called a cab and
then just you know, just show the negativity and only
show just the worst, the worseness of cops, because that's
not the case either. But we have to find a
way to tell the true story of policing in America.
(40:07):
I know it's entertainment. I know it's TV. I know
it's entertainment, but for the past like thirty years, it
was maybe longer than that, it has not told the
real story and it's had a negative consequent consequence on
many Americans.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Madeline, what stories surrounding policing in our criminal justice system
would you like to see told?
Speaker 3 (40:25):
I mean, I agree with Ashton, I think that we
haven't really seen like a real portrayal, so I do
think showing that. I also think they're I mean, there
just needs to be more space for other stories that
doesn't like that don't only tie black people to policing
as well, right, Like we can't only have stories of tragedy,
you know, I think like showing the full spectrum of humanity,
(40:47):
which is often not shown on police procedurals, Like you
just need space for like other shows as well. But again,
a lot of that change happens, like you know, in
the writer's room. I mean, I guess, I mean, I'm
kind of curious now, like because you're both actors, Like
would you want to be would you be in a
police procedural, like would you take a role as.
Speaker 6 (41:05):
A cop or if I want to No, No, I'm
just because of just like how like I guess that's
like if it was changed. I mean, I just I don't.
I don't. I think it has to change a lot,
but I don't know exactly how.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
I had a sitcom that was originally in development here
at Comedy Central where I played a probation officer, and
for me, I wanted to show the redemption side of
the criminal justice system because I feel like that's something
that we don't see enough of most shows that involve
the criminal the legal system. It's either the cop, it's
(41:40):
the case, or it's jail, but there's never anything on
the other side or that. I would say the only
show in the last couple of years to even come
close to that is The Last Og on TBS, and
that's really more of the first two seasons where we
see Tracy Morgan's character going to a halfway house, and
that's really not about the criminal justice system as much
(42:02):
as that show is more about one man's journey back
from all of that. It's not really peeling back the
layers of probation and the bullshit and everything you go
through and keep this job, but you got a job,
but the job is out of your travel district, and
the judge won't give you clearance to go to the
next county to work. So now you're in violation because
(42:22):
your two payments behind on your restitution. Like they don't
really get into that on the last OG. But that's
definitely you know, that's definitely been a show that I've
enjoyed seeing kind of explore just a different part of
that world.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
They do that in Atlanta. There's like scenes him in Atlanta.
In the TV show Atlanta Earned or childis Gambino's character.
He gets arrested, and you keep throughout the season you
see him still having to go to probation office. He
calls out, oh wow, I have Oh if I don't pay,
I'm going to jail, and people, I don't think a
lot of Americans recognize that when you get arrested, I
(43:00):
mean specifically, especially for something as inconsequential as marijuana. There's
millions of Americans dealing with have been put in a
system where they their their life is now a jinga
a jingo table, and one false move can have that
entire thing come crumbling. Down, and that's the situation you're putting.
You're putting a situation where your future is literally at jeopardy,
(43:24):
and that pressure you feel it's not just dealing with
police brutality. The brutality continues after you get like after
you come out of jail and trying to get a job,
trying to vote, trying to change laws. There's so many
things that you still have to deal with and the
pressure is constantly on you.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
So yeah, I want to see more stories like Ashton's story, because,
like you were saying, it's very like what you're saying
is like I've you grew up around a lot of
people who had very similar experiences like you, but yet
that's not really reflected, like the truth of that is
not reflected in on screen.
Speaker 6 (43:54):
So those are the stories that absolutely need telling.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
An innocent kid, Ashton's an innocent kid minding his business,
but he knows the guy that sold the drugs that
ode the girl, and Detective Vic Mackie pools he takes
Ashton and chokes.
Speaker 6 (44:14):
The mine prostitute.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, I'm not a drug dealer right now, but if
I take this crack cocaine and put it in your pocket,
that's ten years. Where's t Baker? Tell me where tea
Bake is?
Speaker 5 (44:28):
I ain't telling you ship Copper.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
That's all the time we have for today. I'm pretty
sure we fixed Copper game the special thanks to you, Madeline,
and special thanks to you Ashton for going beyond the
scenes with me today. Hopefully we've taken you beyond the scenes.
Take care, everybody. I'm gonna go rewatch the Shield now.
I'm sorry. It's a good show.
Speaker 5 (44:52):
I think I am too, honestly, Yeah, nobody go watch
the Shield.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
I think that's he went on a date and Forest. Look,
I know the music is playing. I know it's supposed
to shut up now, I don't care. Forest Whittaker was
internal affairs and was investigating Vic Mackie. Vic Mackie went
on a date with his ex wife just to break
him down, whole world. That's not even spoiling it.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
That's a dirty cop, dirty mackinn, and dirty Coppin.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Wet's see y'all next week. Listen to The Daily Show
Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, or
wherever you get your podcasts. I wanna go even further
beyond the scenes. Check out the video version of beyond
the scenes on the Daily Show's YouTube page.
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