June 13, 2023 • 33 mins
At the height of the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, Daily Show producer Chelsea Williamson posed a question on Instagram: “If you’re Black and my friend, can you tell me what racial things have happened to you at your job?” The responses led Chelsea to pitch a segment exploring what it’s like to be Black in overwhelmingly white workplaces. Chelsea and former Daily Show writer Christiana Mbakwe-Medina join Roy to discuss the resulting piece and their personal experiences, from being called “too professional” to going from “pet to threat.”
Watch the original segment: Black Americans in the Workplace | The Daily Social Distancing Show
Originally aired: October 5, 2021
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Have you ever watched a segment on The Daily Show
and thoughts to yourself, I'd like to know a little
bit more about that topic. Well, if you ever thought that,
you're not my mama because she don't watch the show
on a regular basis because she always watching NCIS New Orleans.
But for the rest of you out there, welcome to
Beyond the Scenes. I'm your host, Roy Wood Junior. This
is the podcast where we take a deeper dive into
(00:29):
some of the most complex issues covered on the Daily
Show with Trevor Noah And to my mom, if you listening,
I know we're not as good as NCIS New Orleans,
but you know, if you give us a chance, I
swear you'll enjoy it. I'm your son, Joyce. I should
be in your DVR today. We're talking about being black
(00:49):
in the workplace. This is a story that originally aired
on the show back on June twenty second, twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Why aren't more African Americans hired in American companies? Is
it because they're lazy, is it because they're uneducated? Or
is it because offices are just way too cold? Well,
despite what your racist uncle might post on Facebook, the
truth is for many Black Americans getting a job is
almost impossible, and it's because their blackness stops them from
(01:18):
even getting in the door.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Blacks are the last hired and the first fired.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
White males are hired based on potential. Blacks are hired
based on demonstrated accomplishments.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Going back a quarter century, statistically speaking.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Very little has changed for black applicants.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Whites received, on average, thirty six percent more callbacks than
African Americans and twenty four percent more callbacks than Latinos.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Thousands of made up resumes were mailed to employers identical
except for the names half black sounding, half white. The
results black sounding names were fifty percent less likely to
get follow up calls.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Wow, racism never takes a day off. If you have
a black sounding name on your resume, you're fifty percent
less likely to get called in for the interview. Imagine
if America had the same policy when picking a president.
That would have screwed things up. It says Barack Hussein obah, Okay. Next, next,
well we got here John Edwards. Now this guy sounds
(02:21):
like he's got ends.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Okay, and off that clip, it's time to go beyond
the scenes to help me do that I've got Daily
Show producer Chelsea Williamson and Emmy nominated Daily Show writer
Christiana and Bacway to walk me through this segment how
it came together, and then we're gonna go beyond because
that's what we do on Beyond This. It's in the
damn title what's going on with you all? Chelsea? How
(02:44):
you doing? First, let's start there.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I'm doing good. How are you?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Roy?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I am very well. Christiana, how are you doing?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
I'm feeling good. Gangs are done, so I'm.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Ill another day in the Emmy nominated writer's room and
she's ready to unwind and nope, Roy, hit you up
and drug you onto a podcast. Now, Chelsea, as a
producer on this show, you kind of have to have
your hand in a bunch of different pots at the
same time. What do you remember about the being black
in the workplace piece in terms of the impetus behind it?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (03:17):
So I remember during the actual when George Floyd was murdered,
and that the reckoning beginnings, I want to say on hiatus,
so I feel like we like left for two weeks
and then the world was inflamed by the time we
got back.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
But immediately after.
Speaker 6 (03:37):
It happened, I was, you know, obviously trying to process it,
and I think I was thinking, you know, well, what
do we do about this people that are in the workplace,
Like how are black people being treated in the workplace?
Because it's not something that's solely police violence isn't the
only way that racism occurs in this country. It's also
(03:59):
very much a daily currents, uh, just in the workplace
and just black people living. So I just started thinking about, like, okay, well,
like what's happened, what's about being black.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
In corporate America?
Speaker 6 (04:10):
And I like quietly pulled some of my black friends
on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Then I was like, I want to do something on
this show.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
What do you hate about your job?
Speaker 5 (04:20):
Basically?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Basically I was that was pretty much like the ask.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
It was just like, if you're black and you're my friend,
can you like tell me what like racial things about
been you at your job? And so so, you know,
I did that, and I did like a whole bunch
of like slides on my Instagram, and I was like, Eh,
this isn't really getting that far though beyond like my
immediate circle. I took it to Jin who is our showrunner,
because I didn't know who to go to. So I
(04:48):
was like, I think this would just be a great
thing to cover, and she was like, you should talk
to Max, he said a Deep Dives. So then I
went to Max and he was like, yeah, this is great,
Like let's talk about this tomorrow. So we just kind
of went on from there and then you know, I
just stayed on the deep Dive team after that too.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
What was some of the feedback you got from people? Like,
what are some of the things that black people, I
don't want to say were are still dealing with in
the workplace.
Speaker 6 (05:14):
Yeah, so I had, you know, a lot of my
like black women, a fellow black women friends said that
they had been they've basically been profiled for having braids
or having their natural hair, you know, because I think
people like to forget, but before like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen,
people like were.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Not wearing their natural hair.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
It was not It's not what it is now where
it's just commonplace and typical. It was something that a
lot of black people still felt like, you know, if
you're a man, you can't have your hair grow longer
than an engine. If you're a woman, it needs to
be straight. So I had a lot of black female
friends that said that. Some people they were like, well,
at least you're in America, you know, you're not somewhere
(05:56):
in Africa. One of my friends was told that by
a boss of his in regards to the protests. And
so I think it's just like those type of micro aggressions.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
That I mostly saw.
Speaker 6 (06:08):
And then I was also you know, going off of
my own experience where I was called like too professional
by like a human resources person at a previous job.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
What does too professional mean?
Speaker 6 (06:18):
I think it was that I wasn't willing to, I guess,
be fake, casual and tell everybody all my business. That's
the only thing I could glean from it. I truly
couldn't tell you. I think I was just very buttoned up,
which I thought we were supposed to be in the workplace,
but apparently not.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So then how do you make that adjustment? Because then
if you're too cashal, then go, well, you're not taking
your job seriously. And I saw you fraternizing and chilling
and chit chatting with people as a black woman, both
of you as black women's that's the plural of in
Alabama public schools? Is there the layers to it that
(07:00):
start first with race and then with gender and then Christiana, well,
I'll let you want to answer that first thing, Christiana,
I want to go another level with you being a
black brit.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
As well, trying to get us in trouble.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Here, Roy, what the different layers are of these microaggressions.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
You know we're talking about like navigating both your blackness
and your womanhood. I think I would say from my experience,
the benefit that black men sometimes get in the workplace
is that they're kind of considered cool. So as much
as like black men obviously do navigate workplace microaggressions, the
(07:45):
slight advantage that they have of masculinity is that people
are like, oh, that's the cool guy. I want him
to be my friend, whereas black women have a phenomenon
that's often called like from pet to threat. I feel
bad for not citing the brilliant person that came up
with that, but initially it's just like, oh, hey, girlfriend,
like people want to be around you. And then you know,
if a black woman asserts herself in a certain way,
(08:07):
she becomes threatening, and just anything from ambition or an
opinion is read as aggression. And I think as a
black woman in America anywhere in the West, you're always
kind of navigating that in just professional spaces, I would
say as a black British woman. Initially, I think the
(08:30):
accent for some people can be disarming, so they're like, oh,
we like this. You know, Americans love accents. I mean
some people will be like, are you austrailing your South African?
But you know, Americans do like accents, and initially it
can kind of be this bomb that can ease the
(08:50):
tension that can come with black a white person as
a black person. But I think over time is that
people no longer hear the accent then and they just
treat you like any other black woman, if that if
that makes sense, because you're still at the core, you're
still black, right, And that's kind of been my my
(09:13):
experience navigating, you know, professional spaces in America is that
the charm wears off within Let's give it a few
days and you will, you know, for better or worse,
you're going to experience what it is to be a
black person in America and the microaggressions that come with it.
And I'm in no way trying to compare it to
(09:36):
what African Americans have had to experience for hundreds of
years because I do you know, I come with like
immigrant advantage and passport advantages and etcetera, etcetera. But you know,
from my personal experience, I'll say after a while, they're like,
you don't care about this accent.
Speaker 5 (09:49):
You're still a N word?
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Can we say you're still a ne g?
Speaker 5 (09:56):
That's what it comes down to.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's like there's death definitely this thing that as a
black person, no matter what country you're from, once you're
in the office to the people who aren't black, you
need grow.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
So it's fair to say that you both have personal
experiences that lent themselves to these to this piece. The
thing that I think that's really cool as well is
that Chelsea, you didn't say this at the top, but
like this you're pitching. This is part of the proof
that the Daily Show, anybody in the building with an
idea can pitch. Yeah, you weren't doing this before this,
(10:32):
but you had an idea, you saw it, You had
all of the personal experiences of being too professional and
then took that and now you're on the whole deep
dive department.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, I just kind of guerrillaed my way through.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
It, But yeah, no, I do think it's definitely, like,
you know, a great case for that, because yeah, I was,
I still am Trevor's assistant, so that's kind of like
the first job and this is like the secondary one.
But yeah, I think, you know, definitely, to echo Christiana's sentiments,
(11:03):
it's something that as soon as you enter a workplace,
you were seeing immediately as like a black woman. And
I feel like, typically what happens is if you want
to succeed.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
You're slotted into being a gossip.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
That's what I've noticed that if you're like a gossip type,
then people tend to like you because you always have
the quote unquote tea. But it does end up getting
into the situation where I feel like for a lot
of black people, black women, black men, you're either like
too much or you're not enough, And it's like there's
(11:35):
no middle ground that's allowed for us that I think
is allowed for others. So then navigating being professional, navigating
corporate America is hard because what are you supposed to
do on two sides of an extreme? Have you had
like similar experiences roy.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Here and there, but it's it's difficult for me to
have that comparison, because when we talk about the corporate space,
I've almost always been talent. You know, I did morning
radio for about ten years, and during that time you
had some microaggressions, but as on air talent, you treat
it with a different air than someone on the sales
side of the building. Per se. Having worked in these
(12:14):
corporations before the daily show and you know what's happening
there on a day to day level in the office,
how did you all feel when you saw all of
the I stopped short of calling it performative togetherness in
Black Square, we care about the bike pop community stuff
that was happening with corporations. Did you feel a lot
of that was sincere or performative?
Speaker 5 (12:35):
Oh? For me, I this is capitalism. Of course.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
It was like it's called a very cynical calculation. I
think for a lot of brands. And I'll say I'll
go back and say, you know, the George Floyd video
was so violent and cut and dry that there was
nobody that can watch it and justify anything of what
(13:00):
the torture that happened. That it was almost an easy
one for corporations and people to get behind because it
was apparent that this was so wrong. So when a
brand makes a statement that George Floyd's life matters and
what happened was horrible, to me, it wasn't that difficult
(13:24):
for them to do. And they kind of made this
calculation that it was better to say something than not
because so many people were watching, right, And I think
it was mostly to kind of comfort White America, because
white people were very distressed by that video because it
kind of just disrupted this idea of the good policeman, right,
because that's the story that they've told themselves, and policemen
(13:45):
do tend to be good to white people, so they
needed to hear from whether it was Starbucks or whatever.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
Brand.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
It was that we saw this thing and we think
it's terrible, and we think black people matter, And to
be honest, like saying that is kind of the bars
really low, even like we love black people, we like
them within the receptional, it's just that we think they matter,
which to me, it should be self evident. If anybody
believes in human rights, we should think anybody matters. So
(14:14):
to me, yeah, it was just kind of very cynical act,
and you know, of.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Course it was performative.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
I think brands are any statement of brand makes in
public is performance, you know, and even in the social
justice space that happens.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
This is when I knew it was getting serious. When
Nickeloney had made a statement. I was like, we didn't
even ask Nickelonian to say anything.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
It was like your local yoga studio. It was like
the people that make clipping hair extensions. Like we were
just like, okay, guys, what is going on here.
Speaker 6 (14:48):
It's kind of like, what are you actually saying? Like
there was nothing behind it anymore. By like I don't
know a week or two in.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
But while these companies are posting messages of support for
the black community, many black people who work in these
companies are asking them to put their money where their
mouth is.
Speaker 7 (15:06):
Big name corporations sharing messages of solidarity, but many are
calling on them to practice what they preach. Employees at
places like Este Lauder and Adidas speaking out against a
lack of diversity and equality in their workplaces, despite public
messages of support from the company CEOs.
Speaker 8 (15:22):
In a video, Nike said, don't pretend there's not a
problem in America.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Critics point out that all of Nike's executives are white.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
You cannot say black lives matter publicly when you don't
show us black lives matter within your own homes and
within your organizations.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, that's right. If you are just some random person
who has ten followers on Twitter and you tweet black
lives Matter, maybe that's the best you can do. But
if you're a major corporation that hires thousands of people,
you can actually show that black lives matter in a
material way that goes beyond your social media feed. On
their own, corporate tweets are useless. No one's going to
(16:01):
stop being racist because Spaghettio's told them to. Like, it's
not enough to just be Black lives Matter in the tweets.
You've got to be Black lives Matter in the streets. Hell,
you got to be Black lives Matter in the sheets. Okay,
maybe I didn't think that last one through, but you
know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So it's clear that this issue, definitely we were able
to kind of make it funny and poignant. But after
the break, I want to talk with you all how
you all were able to maintain that balance within the
script because it is something personal to you, it is
something that's not a laughing matter. We'll do that after
the break. This is beyond the scenes, beyond. We talked
(16:36):
about this around the building, Christiano, how do you maintain
the balance of what people need to know versus what
you know they're going to actually leave with or what
they're actually going to laugh at.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
I think during COVID and you know, in particular with
this George Floyd uprising that happened, I think people needed,
especially why peop That's why they were buying all those books.
They needed a lot of context. Like it's like people
(17:07):
really needed to understand they were leading like the sixteen
nineteen project. They're like trying to figure out basically America's history,
you know. And I think that there were parts of
our audience that were just like, why is there so much?
Why is there such an outpouring on the streets. They
really wanted to understand how America had got where it
(17:28):
had got to. And I think our show is kind
of different in the sense that we've had to cover
a lot of police shootings since Trevor's been at the show.
I think we've pretty much covered all of the high
profile incidents in some way. So it's a conversation that
has been happening with the Daily Show audience I think
longer than some some other places. So I think our
(17:53):
show needed less context about police brutality per se, but
then we could touch on another level. And you know
what Chelsea brought to the table, what's happening in corporate culture?
You know, it's it's hard with something as upsetting is
this case and that moment, because you want to give
(18:14):
people information, you want to be funny, but we're also
mindful of the fact that people are still really hurting
and like how emotionally raw that moment was. So I
think it was a real typrope.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
You know.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
I even felt when being in the gangs, like how
do we how do we say what we need to
say without seeming you know, flippant.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, that's that's an interesting thing for the people don't know.
The writers' gangs is where the writers all quote unquote
gang up on a topic or gang up on this
one thing for the day, and everybody starts bouncing around stuff.
What is that like when you're in the room with
other writers who haven't lived that experience but also have
to tell you, is there a better way to say
touched your hair instead of grab Like how hands on
(19:01):
or hands off were the other writers in giving you
the space to be able to address something that was
so personal.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I never read anything that I made me be like like,
why would they say that? Or why would that makes
me uncomfortable? And I think that's because we probably have
the only white writers in Late night who are really
good at doing black tragedy because they've done it so.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
Much, you know.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
So it's just like crazy, it's so fucked up, it's
so messed up. But that's that's that's the reality that
all of our white writers would have had to have
written on a race piece that involves tragedy at some point,
and obviously the black writers too, so we were really equipped.
(19:44):
And that I mean from my perspective, that makes scrolling
through gangs a lot less triggering because you know you're
not going to read some ball, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
So, Chelsea, the way I've tried to explain the writer's room,
the writers will take the information that's brought to them.
They take the grocery and make the meal. Where the
producers in Deep Dive and everybody else it's their job
to go to the grocery store and find all of
the ingredients. As you were doing research on this topic,
how much like how did you decide, all right, that's
(20:14):
fucked up, but we can't talk about that in this
particular piece, like how much BS were you finding? That's
going on in the boardrooms of a lot of companies?
Speaker 6 (20:25):
I think with this one is a lot of It
was actually more informed by our experience, so it was
more of me and one of the other members of
the team at the time who was also he's a
black man. We were basically just talking about our experiences.
So what we were simply trying to do with the
research is find things to back us up.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
If you're one of the few black people who have
made it into corporate America, congratulations. Your reward is working
every day with some people who have no idea how
to act around you. Micro aggression described indirect or subtle discrimination,
and if you're on the receiving end, it can be
as hurtful as anything.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Overt white people will come from and say you speak
so well, and then right speaks so well, or you're
very articure.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
In my own person experience, like you don't sound black,
like what does sound black and sound white really mean?
You're not like the others, and stuff like that, and
you think about it because It's like, you're not like
the others, but what are the others?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
The assumption is always going to lead in that I
know less.
Speaker 8 (21:24):
My manager turns to me and says, well, isn't your
hair so big because all of your intelligence is in
there and physically grabbed my hair.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah. Every day black people have to navigate a workplace
filled with people who don't even realize that they're doing
something offensive. You're so intelligent, it must be in your hair.
This is what you get from living in a segregated society.
Instead of knowing black people and black culture, You've got
white folks interacting with black people like they're making contact
(21:57):
with et. Hello, my friend, do your people shake hands?
Not the coronavirus.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
So it was a little bit different than normal where
we're just like out trying to find the actual research
and then you know, find a story through it.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
But it's like we had the story.
Speaker 6 (22:14):
It was just like, can we find somebody else or
can we find the statistics? Can we find that information
that will back up what we already have experienced?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And how hard is that? Because racism and discrimination is
like turned into a vapor in a lot of spaces
now where it's not this quantifiable proof of colored fountain signs.
It's this weird, blobulous thing that you can say it's happening,
but if you can't show me data, did it really happen?
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Yeah, No, it was.
Speaker 6 (22:43):
It was difficult, like we were, we were like finding
people's like personal, you know, first person anecdotal experiences because
some things, you know, a lot of media especially just
doesn't cover it because as you said, people kind of
think it doesn't exist. So you know, there are certain
things that like we even couldn't include because we couldn't
(23:04):
find things to back us up.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
So you know there is that as well.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
What's the feeling like, Chelsea when you see this piece air,
you've thought this You've taken it to Flans. She took
it to him, taking to him. Then Christiania came in
and then y'all was in the kitchen or y'all was
talking to each other with zoom did you see that
that Kesker? And then it aired? What was just just
what was that feeling?
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Uh?
Speaker 6 (23:31):
It felt great, I mean because it was like it
was basically putting into words what I had felt ever
since I started working, And I felt like I was
being gas lit because people don't like to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
They like to you know.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
The extent for a lot of corporations is like, oh,
we maybe have like a multicultural committee, or we have
like a black you know, employee group or whatever, and
that's basically it. But it's like you very much stay
within your employee group and you talk about it there,
but you don't talk about it with your white coworkers,
and you don't tell them this is how you're making
me feel. So for me, it was very much like, yes,
(24:07):
here's everything that I've wanted to say and explain all
these years, and how we're put into a very anxious
space as black people in white corporate environments because if
you do something to me that's you know, racial, or
that's like the microaggression, I'm the one that has to
deal with that, like anxiety of should I tell somebody
(24:29):
who would even believe me if I do, will hr
be helpful because most of the time they're not. You know,
we're the ones that I have to deal with all of that,
whereas the white person's just going on about their lives.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I have to say, though, Chelsea, someone called you to
professional and you left that company and joined another company
and worked your way into the creative space within that company,
informed a segment that then aired on national television to
explain to people the ways in which they're being terribly unprofessional,
and that is exactly what a professional withd well done.
(25:08):
Do you think there's a weird reckoning that's starting to
happen finally in the workplace, because you know, I know
that a lot of companies did the performative stuff last summer,
but then came the seminars and the zoom sessions and
the I call it the group, the group hug Hey, guys,
we love you, every want you to know we love you,
(25:29):
and we're just checking on you and make sure you're okay.
Do you think that's, at least to some degree, half
a footstep in the right direction.
Speaker 6 (25:39):
I feel like I'm happy that there's accountability now to
a degree, even that small bit that we got, that's
the most I've ever seen, and that I think the
most that probably our parents' generation has ever seen, where
it's like being talked about so often, and where companies
felt like they had to start publishing the numbers because
(26:00):
people were literally in their dms like, hey, y'all are
always profiting off of Black culture. How many Black people
do you have that work here? I feel like they
just need to keep being held accountable because a lot
of these companies will just go back to their old
ways if nobody is there holding their feet to the
fire about hiring black people and then retaining them once
you hire them.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Christiana, what are some of the practical things companies can
do to basically, you know, keep their diversity numbers up
and you know, have black people in the workplace and
improve their working experience within and up. Just to have
black people, you got to make sure they're comfortable once
they're in the building.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
I mean, I believe it's about widening and deepening the
pool of black candidates that you see and getting hired
because from my observation, you know, if a black person
is in corporate America, they or in any professional space,
they're oftentimes pulled from, you know, certain places and I
(26:59):
don't go to, you know, the Ivy League, a certain
type of PWI, a select number of HBCUs, and I'm
really interested in seeing it being expanded to broader HBCUs,
like the HBCUs that kind of get forgotten. I'm interested
in us looking at being keen to get more black
people who come from poor and working class backgrounds, because
(27:19):
I just I feel like there is just a pipeline
of like black elite kids to corporations that the black
kids that are going to succeed tend to get hired
by these places, right, and their teams are being interest
in hiring a very quote unquote what they call palatable
black person, and the loaded.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Word is like, oh, they're just a good fit.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Right until you have like, you know, texture and variety,
and the black candidates that get into these companies, I
don't think we're going to see true progress, you know,
because in my opinion, if black people from the Ivy
League are struggling at law firms, right, they feel isolated
and they're struggling, what about the other people?
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Right?
Speaker 4 (28:01):
So you know, I'm just keen for it to be
as many you know, diverse within black people, because I
don't think people think about diversity.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
Within black candidates.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
They think black being black is the diversity, And to me,
that's just being black doesn't make you dive a diverse candidate.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Really like that we need to broaden.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
It a bit, and you know, and also just looking
at black people that may not have degrees but have
something to offer, because if you go to the.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Tech world, you need plenty of white boys.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Who don't even have a degree, and they're like founders
and they're CEOs, and they've done really well.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
For themselves, self taught, self taught.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
But there is a path for them, right there's a
path for the white college drop out to be the
founder of Facebook. To me, it's not progress if all
the black candidates are pulled from your elite. That's just replication,
replicating class elitism in my opinion, Chelsea.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Do you think we're at the beginning of an arms
race within corporations to have more talented But like, if
you're black and you can do the job well, you
about to have five six people falling over you, doubling
and triple in the office at this point? Or are
is it what Christianity? We just nibble a little bit
and just give me one or two blacks. I don't
need that many.
Speaker 6 (29:15):
I think it's probably in between at this point. Like
I feel like there has definitely been a call for
more black people to join various organizations because again they
were getting called out last year. But I feel like
most of the people that are probably being recruited and
getting these jobs are either already in the pipeline, or
they're being recruited from a certain class level because they're
(29:39):
able to do it and they know the right people,
or you know, whatever it may be. So I feel
like it's definitely like a mix between those two things,
but it is we do definitely need to expand our
definition of like what is black diversity for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Have you noticed any major brands or corporations that are
just that have had changes over the past year or
just have like just flat out set in black and white.
This is what we're doing to make quantifiable change. This
is what it is.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
I think we will really know if this moment has
been an impactful long term in about five to ten years.
I think we're measuring too soon, perhaps, you know, and
I maybe being cynical too suone.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Well, but you know what it's like though, I feel
like a lot of these white corporations, or a lot
of just corn't white, A lot of these corporations in general.
I think that it's kind of like when you're a
guy and you mess up with your girl and you're
trying to get out of the dog house. Yeah, you
keep shaking in every day? What about now? What about now?
Speaker 6 (30:42):
All right?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
I put the black square on my Instagram. I had
I created a new position called the black person in
charge of Blackness? What about now? Because I think there
were there were a couple of fashion and beauty brands.
I think they made like a fifteen percent pledge, Yeah,
to have some degree of staffing or making sure that.
(31:03):
And then also in Hollywood, you know, there are a
lot of companies, There are a lot of production companies
that are making diversity pledges to having X number of
positions reserved for the bipop community behind the camera as well.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yeah, we're seeing more inclusion writers and things like that,
which is a really good first step. But I think
it goes back to what Chelsea has been saying about
when those black people do get on set or do
get into those companies, is it an environment where they
feel comfortable so the talent can be retained and we're
not seeing What we oftentimes see is that somebody comes
(31:38):
in and they last a couple of years and then
they go and then the company is like.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Oh my god, we can't keep black people.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
We tried, Okay, right, We're done.
Speaker 6 (31:48):
Or they keep them at the same level because that's
also a major problem where it's like they won't promote
a lot of black people like you know, that was
one of the big findings we had is that so
few like I think Fortune five hundred companies have black
people in the c suite, you know, the CEO's, the ceeos, CFOs,
like we just don't make it up there, and they're
just looking at each other like well, I don't know,
(32:10):
I don't know. They just they just top out someplace
and it's like, well, no, you're probably not mentoring them
or pouring into them, and you should because they're coming
in from a different perspective and you're not promoting them,
like you're not even giving them the option typically to
even go for a job.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Well, this has been a deep, in moving, an amazing conversation,
and I thank you ladies both for this. That's all
the time we have today for Beyond the Scenes. A
special thank you to you Chelsea Williamson, and thank you
to you Christiana. IM back way hopefully by now we've
taken you beyond the scenes. Take care of everybody, play
(32:49):
me some music producer. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond
the Scenes on Apple Podcasts. The iHeartRadio, Apple or wherever
you get your podcasts. Want to go even further beyond
the scenes, check out the video version of Beyond the
(33:10):
Scenes on the Daily Shows YouTube page.
Have you ever watched a segment on The Daily Show
and thoughts to yourself, I'd like to know a little
bit more about that topic. Well, if you ever thought that,
you're not my mama because she don't watch the show
on a regular basis because she always watching NCIS New Orleans.
But for the rest of you out there, welcome to
Beyond the Scenes. I'm your host, Roy Wood Junior. This
is the podcast where we take a deeper dive into
(00:29):
some of the most complex issues covered on the Daily
Show with Trevor Noah And to my mom, if you listening,
I know we're not as good as NCIS New Orleans,
but you know, if you give us a chance, I
swear you'll enjoy it. I'm your son, Joyce. I should
be in your DVR today. We're talking about being black
(00:49):
in the workplace. This is a story that originally aired
on the show back on June twenty second, twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Why aren't more African Americans hired in American companies? Is
it because they're lazy, is it because they're uneducated? Or
is it because offices are just way too cold? Well,
despite what your racist uncle might post on Facebook, the
truth is for many Black Americans getting a job is
almost impossible, and it's because their blackness stops them from
(01:18):
even getting in the door.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Blacks are the last hired and the first fired.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
White males are hired based on potential. Blacks are hired
based on demonstrated accomplishments.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Going back a quarter century, statistically speaking.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Very little has changed for black applicants.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Whites received, on average, thirty six percent more callbacks than
African Americans and twenty four percent more callbacks than Latinos.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Thousands of made up resumes were mailed to employers identical
except for the names half black sounding, half white. The
results black sounding names were fifty percent less likely to
get follow up calls.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Wow, racism never takes a day off. If you have
a black sounding name on your resume, you're fifty percent
less likely to get called in for the interview. Imagine
if America had the same policy when picking a president.
That would have screwed things up. It says Barack Hussein obah, Okay. Next, next,
well we got here John Edwards. Now this guy sounds
(02:21):
like he's got ends.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Okay, and off that clip, it's time to go beyond
the scenes to help me do that I've got Daily
Show producer Chelsea Williamson and Emmy nominated Daily Show writer
Christiana and Bacway to walk me through this segment how
it came together, and then we're gonna go beyond because
that's what we do on Beyond This. It's in the
damn title what's going on with you all? Chelsea? How
(02:44):
you doing? First, let's start there.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I'm doing good. How are you?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Roy?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I am very well. Christiana, how are you doing?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
I'm feeling good. Gangs are done, so I'm.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Ill another day in the Emmy nominated writer's room and
she's ready to unwind and nope, Roy, hit you up
and drug you onto a podcast. Now, Chelsea, as a
producer on this show, you kind of have to have
your hand in a bunch of different pots at the
same time. What do you remember about the being black
in the workplace piece in terms of the impetus behind it?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (03:17):
So I remember during the actual when George Floyd was murdered,
and that the reckoning beginnings, I want to say on hiatus,
so I feel like we like left for two weeks
and then the world was inflamed by the time we
got back.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
But immediately after.
Speaker 6 (03:37):
It happened, I was, you know, obviously trying to process it,
and I think I was thinking, you know, well, what
do we do about this people that are in the workplace,
Like how are black people being treated in the workplace?
Because it's not something that's solely police violence isn't the
only way that racism occurs in this country. It's also
(03:59):
very much a daily currents, uh, just in the workplace
and just black people living. So I just started thinking about, like, okay, well,
like what's happened, what's about being black.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
In corporate America?
Speaker 6 (04:10):
And I like quietly pulled some of my black friends
on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Then I was like, I want to do something on
this show.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
What do you hate about your job?
Speaker 5 (04:20):
Basically?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Basically I was that was pretty much like the ask.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
It was just like, if you're black and you're my friend,
can you like tell me what like racial things about
been you at your job? And so so, you know,
I did that, and I did like a whole bunch
of like slides on my Instagram, and I was like, Eh,
this isn't really getting that far though beyond like my
immediate circle. I took it to Jin who is our showrunner,
because I didn't know who to go to. So I
(04:48):
was like, I think this would just be a great
thing to cover, and she was like, you should talk
to Max, he said a Deep Dives. So then I
went to Max and he was like, yeah, this is great,
Like let's talk about this tomorrow. So we just kind
of went on from there and then you know, I
just stayed on the deep Dive team after that too.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
What was some of the feedback you got from people? Like,
what are some of the things that black people, I
don't want to say were are still dealing with in
the workplace.
Speaker 6 (05:14):
Yeah, so I had, you know, a lot of my
like black women, a fellow black women friends said that
they had been they've basically been profiled for having braids
or having their natural hair, you know, because I think
people like to forget, but before like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen,
people like were.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Not wearing their natural hair.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
It was not It's not what it is now where
it's just commonplace and typical. It was something that a
lot of black people still felt like, you know, if
you're a man, you can't have your hair grow longer
than an engine. If you're a woman, it needs to
be straight. So I had a lot of black female
friends that said that. Some people they were like, well,
at least you're in America, you know, you're not somewhere
(05:56):
in Africa. One of my friends was told that by
a boss of his in regards to the protests. And
so I think it's just like those type of micro aggressions.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
That I mostly saw.
Speaker 6 (06:08):
And then I was also you know, going off of
my own experience where I was called like too professional
by like a human resources person at a previous job.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
What does too professional mean?
Speaker 6 (06:18):
I think it was that I wasn't willing to, I guess,
be fake, casual and tell everybody all my business. That's
the only thing I could glean from it. I truly
couldn't tell you. I think I was just very buttoned up,
which I thought we were supposed to be in the workplace,
but apparently not.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So then how do you make that adjustment? Because then
if you're too cashal, then go, well, you're not taking
your job seriously. And I saw you fraternizing and chilling
and chit chatting with people as a black woman, both
of you as black women's that's the plural of in
Alabama public schools? Is there the layers to it that
(07:00):
start first with race and then with gender and then Christiana, well,
I'll let you want to answer that first thing, Christiana,
I want to go another level with you being a
black brit.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
As well, trying to get us in trouble.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Here, Roy, what the different layers are of these microaggressions.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
You know we're talking about like navigating both your blackness
and your womanhood. I think I would say from my experience,
the benefit that black men sometimes get in the workplace
is that they're kind of considered cool. So as much
as like black men obviously do navigate workplace microaggressions, the
(07:45):
slight advantage that they have of masculinity is that people
are like, oh, that's the cool guy. I want him
to be my friend, whereas black women have a phenomenon
that's often called like from pet to threat. I feel
bad for not citing the brilliant person that came up
with that, but initially it's just like, oh, hey, girlfriend,
like people want to be around you. And then you know,
if a black woman asserts herself in a certain way,
(08:07):
she becomes threatening, and just anything from ambition or an
opinion is read as aggression. And I think as a
black woman in America anywhere in the West, you're always
kind of navigating that in just professional spaces, I would
say as a black British woman. Initially, I think the
(08:30):
accent for some people can be disarming, so they're like, oh,
we like this. You know, Americans love accents. I mean
some people will be like, are you austrailing your South African?
But you know, Americans do like accents, and initially it
can kind of be this bomb that can ease the
(08:50):
tension that can come with black a white person as
a black person. But I think over time is that
people no longer hear the accent then and they just
treat you like any other black woman, if that if
that makes sense, because you're still at the core, you're
still black, right, And that's kind of been my my
(09:13):
experience navigating, you know, professional spaces in America is that
the charm wears off within Let's give it a few
days and you will, you know, for better or worse,
you're going to experience what it is to be a
black person in America and the microaggressions that come with it.
And I'm in no way trying to compare it to
(09:36):
what African Americans have had to experience for hundreds of
years because I do you know, I come with like
immigrant advantage and passport advantages and etcetera, etcetera. But you know,
from my personal experience, I'll say after a while, they're like,
you don't care about this accent.
Speaker 5 (09:49):
You're still a N word?
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Can we say you're still a ne g?
Speaker 5 (09:56):
That's what it comes down to.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's like there's death definitely this thing that as a
black person, no matter what country you're from, once you're
in the office to the people who aren't black, you
need grow.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
So it's fair to say that you both have personal
experiences that lent themselves to these to this piece. The
thing that I think that's really cool as well is
that Chelsea, you didn't say this at the top, but
like this you're pitching. This is part of the proof
that the Daily Show, anybody in the building with an
idea can pitch. Yeah, you weren't doing this before this,
(10:32):
but you had an idea, you saw it, You had
all of the personal experiences of being too professional and
then took that and now you're on the whole deep
dive department.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, I just kind of guerrillaed my way through.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
It, But yeah, no, I do think it's definitely, like,
you know, a great case for that, because yeah, I was,
I still am Trevor's assistant, so that's kind of like
the first job and this is like the secondary one.
But yeah, I think, you know, definitely, to echo Christiana's sentiments,
(11:03):
it's something that as soon as you enter a workplace,
you were seeing immediately as like a black woman. And
I feel like, typically what happens is if you want
to succeed.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
You're slotted into being a gossip.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
That's what I've noticed that if you're like a gossip type,
then people tend to like you because you always have
the quote unquote tea. But it does end up getting
into the situation where I feel like for a lot
of black people, black women, black men, you're either like
too much or you're not enough, And it's like there's
(11:35):
no middle ground that's allowed for us that I think
is allowed for others. So then navigating being professional, navigating
corporate America is hard because what are you supposed to
do on two sides of an extreme? Have you had
like similar experiences roy.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Here and there, but it's it's difficult for me to
have that comparison, because when we talk about the corporate space,
I've almost always been talent. You know, I did morning
radio for about ten years, and during that time you
had some microaggressions, but as on air talent, you treat
it with a different air than someone on the sales
side of the building. Per se. Having worked in these
(12:14):
corporations before the daily show and you know what's happening
there on a day to day level in the office,
how did you all feel when you saw all of
the I stopped short of calling it performative togetherness in
Black Square, we care about the bike pop community stuff
that was happening with corporations. Did you feel a lot
of that was sincere or performative?
Speaker 5 (12:35):
Oh? For me, I this is capitalism. Of course.
Speaker 4 (12:39):
It was like it's called a very cynical calculation. I
think for a lot of brands. And I'll say I'll
go back and say, you know, the George Floyd video
was so violent and cut and dry that there was
nobody that can watch it and justify anything of what
(13:00):
the torture that happened. That it was almost an easy
one for corporations and people to get behind because it
was apparent that this was so wrong. So when a
brand makes a statement that George Floyd's life matters and
what happened was horrible, to me, it wasn't that difficult
(13:24):
for them to do. And they kind of made this
calculation that it was better to say something than not
because so many people were watching, right, And I think
it was mostly to kind of comfort White America, because
white people were very distressed by that video because it
kind of just disrupted this idea of the good policeman, right,
because that's the story that they've told themselves, and policemen
(13:45):
do tend to be good to white people, so they
needed to hear from whether it was Starbucks or whatever.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
Brand.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
It was that we saw this thing and we think
it's terrible, and we think black people matter, And to
be honest, like saying that is kind of the bars
really low, even like we love black people, we like
them within the receptional, it's just that we think they matter,
which to me, it should be self evident. If anybody
believes in human rights, we should think anybody matters. So
(14:14):
to me, yeah, it was just kind of very cynical act,
and you know, of.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Course it was performative.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
I think brands are any statement of brand makes in
public is performance, you know, and even in the social
justice space that happens.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
This is when I knew it was getting serious. When
Nickeloney had made a statement. I was like, we didn't
even ask Nickelonian to say anything.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
It was like your local yoga studio. It was like
the people that make clipping hair extensions. Like we were
just like, okay, guys, what is going on here.
Speaker 6 (14:48):
It's kind of like, what are you actually saying? Like
there was nothing behind it anymore. By like I don't
know a week or two in.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
But while these companies are posting messages of support for
the black community, many black people who work in these
companies are asking them to put their money where their
mouth is.
Speaker 7 (15:06):
Big name corporations sharing messages of solidarity, but many are
calling on them to practice what they preach. Employees at
places like Este Lauder and Adidas speaking out against a
lack of diversity and equality in their workplaces, despite public
messages of support from the company CEOs.
Speaker 8 (15:22):
In a video, Nike said, don't pretend there's not a
problem in America.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Critics point out that all of Nike's executives are white.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
You cannot say black lives matter publicly when you don't
show us black lives matter within your own homes and
within your organizations.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, that's right. If you are just some random person
who has ten followers on Twitter and you tweet black
lives Matter, maybe that's the best you can do. But
if you're a major corporation that hires thousands of people,
you can actually show that black lives matter in a
material way that goes beyond your social media feed. On
their own, corporate tweets are useless. No one's going to
(16:01):
stop being racist because Spaghettio's told them to. Like, it's
not enough to just be Black lives Matter in the tweets.
You've got to be Black lives Matter in the streets. Hell,
you got to be Black lives Matter in the sheets. Okay,
maybe I didn't think that last one through, but you
know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So it's clear that this issue, definitely we were able
to kind of make it funny and poignant. But after
the break, I want to talk with you all how
you all were able to maintain that balance within the
script because it is something personal to you, it is
something that's not a laughing matter. We'll do that after
the break. This is beyond the scenes, beyond. We talked
(16:36):
about this around the building, Christiano, how do you maintain
the balance of what people need to know versus what
you know they're going to actually leave with or what
they're actually going to laugh at.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
I think during COVID and you know, in particular with
this George Floyd uprising that happened, I think people needed,
especially why peop That's why they were buying all those books.
They needed a lot of context. Like it's like people
(17:07):
really needed to understand they were leading like the sixteen
nineteen project. They're like trying to figure out basically America's history,
you know. And I think that there were parts of
our audience that were just like, why is there so much?
Why is there such an outpouring on the streets. They
really wanted to understand how America had got where it
(17:28):
had got to. And I think our show is kind
of different in the sense that we've had to cover
a lot of police shootings since Trevor's been at the show.
I think we've pretty much covered all of the high
profile incidents in some way. So it's a conversation that
has been happening with the Daily Show audience I think
longer than some some other places. So I think our
(17:53):
show needed less context about police brutality per se, but
then we could touch on another level. And you know
what Chelsea brought to the table, what's happening in corporate culture?
You know, it's it's hard with something as upsetting is
this case and that moment, because you want to give
(18:14):
people information, you want to be funny, but we're also
mindful of the fact that people are still really hurting
and like how emotionally raw that moment was. So I
think it was a real typrope.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
You know.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
I even felt when being in the gangs, like how
do we how do we say what we need to
say without seeming you know, flippant.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, that's that's an interesting thing for the people don't know.
The writers' gangs is where the writers all quote unquote
gang up on a topic or gang up on this
one thing for the day, and everybody starts bouncing around stuff.
What is that like when you're in the room with
other writers who haven't lived that experience but also have
to tell you, is there a better way to say
touched your hair instead of grab Like how hands on
(19:01):
or hands off were the other writers in giving you
the space to be able to address something that was
so personal.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I never read anything that I made me be like like,
why would they say that? Or why would that makes
me uncomfortable? And I think that's because we probably have
the only white writers in Late night who are really
good at doing black tragedy because they've done it so.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
Much, you know.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
So it's just like crazy, it's so fucked up, it's
so messed up. But that's that's that's the reality that
all of our white writers would have had to have
written on a race piece that involves tragedy at some point,
and obviously the black writers too, so we were really equipped.
(19:44):
And that I mean from my perspective, that makes scrolling
through gangs a lot less triggering because you know you're
not going to read some ball, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
So, Chelsea, the way I've tried to explain the writer's room,
the writers will take the information that's brought to them.
They take the grocery and make the meal. Where the
producers in Deep Dive and everybody else it's their job
to go to the grocery store and find all of
the ingredients. As you were doing research on this topic,
how much like how did you decide, all right, that's
(20:14):
fucked up, but we can't talk about that in this
particular piece, like how much BS were you finding? That's
going on in the boardrooms of a lot of companies?
Speaker 6 (20:25):
I think with this one is a lot of It
was actually more informed by our experience, so it was
more of me and one of the other members of
the team at the time who was also he's a
black man. We were basically just talking about our experiences.
So what we were simply trying to do with the
research is find things to back us up.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
If you're one of the few black people who have
made it into corporate America, congratulations. Your reward is working
every day with some people who have no idea how
to act around you. Micro aggression described indirect or subtle discrimination,
and if you're on the receiving end, it can be
as hurtful as anything.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Overt white people will come from and say you speak
so well, and then right speaks so well, or you're
very articure.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
In my own person experience, like you don't sound black,
like what does sound black and sound white really mean?
You're not like the others, and stuff like that, and
you think about it because It's like, you're not like
the others, but what are the others?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
The assumption is always going to lead in that I
know less.
Speaker 8 (21:24):
My manager turns to me and says, well, isn't your
hair so big because all of your intelligence is in
there and physically grabbed my hair.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah. Every day black people have to navigate a workplace
filled with people who don't even realize that they're doing
something offensive. You're so intelligent, it must be in your hair.
This is what you get from living in a segregated society.
Instead of knowing black people and black culture, You've got
white folks interacting with black people like they're making contact
(21:57):
with et. Hello, my friend, do your people shake hands?
Not the coronavirus.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
So it was a little bit different than normal where
we're just like out trying to find the actual research
and then you know, find a story through it.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
But it's like we had the story.
Speaker 6 (22:14):
It was just like, can we find somebody else or
can we find the statistics? Can we find that information
that will back up what we already have experienced?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And how hard is that? Because racism and discrimination is
like turned into a vapor in a lot of spaces
now where it's not this quantifiable proof of colored fountain signs.
It's this weird, blobulous thing that you can say it's happening,
but if you can't show me data, did it really happen?
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Yeah, No, it was.
Speaker 6 (22:43):
It was difficult, like we were, we were like finding
people's like personal, you know, first person anecdotal experiences because
some things, you know, a lot of media especially just
doesn't cover it because as you said, people kind of
think it doesn't exist. So you know, there are certain
things that like we even couldn't include because we couldn't
(23:04):
find things to back us up.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
So you know there is that as well.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
What's the feeling like, Chelsea when you see this piece air,
you've thought this You've taken it to Flans. She took
it to him, taking to him. Then Christiania came in
and then y'all was in the kitchen or y'all was
talking to each other with zoom did you see that
that Kesker? And then it aired? What was just just
what was that feeling?
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Uh?
Speaker 6 (23:31):
It felt great, I mean because it was like it
was basically putting into words what I had felt ever
since I started working, And I felt like I was
being gas lit because people don't like to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
They like to you know.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
The extent for a lot of corporations is like, oh,
we maybe have like a multicultural committee, or we have
like a black you know, employee group or whatever, and
that's basically it. But it's like you very much stay
within your employee group and you talk about it there,
but you don't talk about it with your white coworkers,
and you don't tell them this is how you're making
me feel. So for me, it was very much like, yes,
(24:07):
here's everything that I've wanted to say and explain all
these years, and how we're put into a very anxious
space as black people in white corporate environments because if
you do something to me that's you know, racial, or
that's like the microaggression, I'm the one that has to
deal with that, like anxiety of should I tell somebody
(24:29):
who would even believe me if I do, will hr
be helpful because most of the time they're not. You know,
we're the ones that I have to deal with all of that,
whereas the white person's just going on about their lives.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I have to say, though, Chelsea, someone called you to
professional and you left that company and joined another company
and worked your way into the creative space within that company,
informed a segment that then aired on national television to
explain to people the ways in which they're being terribly unprofessional,
and that is exactly what a professional withd well done.
(25:08):
Do you think there's a weird reckoning that's starting to
happen finally in the workplace, because you know, I know
that a lot of companies did the performative stuff last summer,
but then came the seminars and the zoom sessions and
the I call it the group, the group hug Hey, guys,
we love you, every want you to know we love you,
(25:29):
and we're just checking on you and make sure you're okay.
Do you think that's, at least to some degree, half
a footstep in the right direction.
Speaker 6 (25:39):
I feel like I'm happy that there's accountability now to
a degree, even that small bit that we got, that's
the most I've ever seen, and that I think the
most that probably our parents' generation has ever seen, where
it's like being talked about so often, and where companies
felt like they had to start publishing the numbers because
(26:00):
people were literally in their dms like, hey, y'all are
always profiting off of Black culture. How many Black people
do you have that work here? I feel like they
just need to keep being held accountable because a lot
of these companies will just go back to their old
ways if nobody is there holding their feet to the
fire about hiring black people and then retaining them once
you hire them.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Christiana, what are some of the practical things companies can
do to basically, you know, keep their diversity numbers up
and you know, have black people in the workplace and
improve their working experience within and up. Just to have
black people, you got to make sure they're comfortable once
they're in the building.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
I mean, I believe it's about widening and deepening the
pool of black candidates that you see and getting hired
because from my observation, you know, if a black person
is in corporate America, they or in any professional space,
they're oftentimes pulled from, you know, certain places and I
(26:59):
don't go to, you know, the Ivy League, a certain
type of PWI, a select number of HBCUs, and I'm
really interested in seeing it being expanded to broader HBCUs,
like the HBCUs that kind of get forgotten. I'm interested
in us looking at being keen to get more black
people who come from poor and working class backgrounds, because
(27:19):
I just I feel like there is just a pipeline
of like black elite kids to corporations that the black
kids that are going to succeed tend to get hired
by these places, right, and their teams are being interest
in hiring a very quote unquote what they call palatable
black person, and the loaded.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Word is like, oh, they're just a good fit.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Right until you have like, you know, texture and variety,
and the black candidates that get into these companies, I
don't think we're going to see true progress, you know,
because in my opinion, if black people from the Ivy
League are struggling at law firms, right, they feel isolated
and they're struggling, what about the other people?
Speaker 5 (28:01):
Right?
Speaker 4 (28:01):
So you know, I'm just keen for it to be
as many you know, diverse within black people, because I
don't think people think about diversity.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
Within black candidates.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
They think black being black is the diversity, And to me,
that's just being black doesn't make you dive a diverse candidate.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Really like that we need to broaden.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
It a bit, and you know, and also just looking
at black people that may not have degrees but have
something to offer, because if you go to the.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Tech world, you need plenty of white boys.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Who don't even have a degree, and they're like founders
and they're CEOs, and they've done really well.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
For themselves, self taught, self taught.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
But there is a path for them, right there's a
path for the white college drop out to be the
founder of Facebook. To me, it's not progress if all
the black candidates are pulled from your elite. That's just replication,
replicating class elitism in my opinion, Chelsea.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Do you think we're at the beginning of an arms
race within corporations to have more talented But like, if
you're black and you can do the job well, you
about to have five six people falling over you, doubling
and triple in the office at this point? Or are
is it what Christianity? We just nibble a little bit
and just give me one or two blacks. I don't
need that many.
Speaker 6 (29:15):
I think it's probably in between at this point. Like
I feel like there has definitely been a call for
more black people to join various organizations because again they
were getting called out last year. But I feel like
most of the people that are probably being recruited and
getting these jobs are either already in the pipeline, or
they're being recruited from a certain class level because they're
(29:39):
able to do it and they know the right people,
or you know, whatever it may be. So I feel
like it's definitely like a mix between those two things,
but it is we do definitely need to expand our
definition of like what is black diversity for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Have you noticed any major brands or corporations that are
just that have had changes over the past year or
just have like just flat out set in black and white.
This is what we're doing to make quantifiable change. This
is what it is.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
I think we will really know if this moment has
been an impactful long term in about five to ten years.
I think we're measuring too soon, perhaps, you know, and
I maybe being cynical too suone.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Well, but you know what it's like though, I feel
like a lot of these white corporations, or a lot
of just corn't white, A lot of these corporations in general.
I think that it's kind of like when you're a
guy and you mess up with your girl and you're
trying to get out of the dog house. Yeah, you
keep shaking in every day? What about now? What about now?
Speaker 6 (30:42):
All right?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
I put the black square on my Instagram. I had
I created a new position called the black person in
charge of Blackness? What about now? Because I think there
were there were a couple of fashion and beauty brands.
I think they made like a fifteen percent pledge, Yeah,
to have some degree of staffing or making sure that.
(31:03):
And then also in Hollywood, you know, there are a
lot of companies, There are a lot of production companies
that are making diversity pledges to having X number of
positions reserved for the bipop community behind the camera as well.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yeah, we're seeing more inclusion writers and things like that,
which is a really good first step. But I think
it goes back to what Chelsea has been saying about
when those black people do get on set or do
get into those companies, is it an environment where they
feel comfortable so the talent can be retained and we're
not seeing What we oftentimes see is that somebody comes
(31:38):
in and they last a couple of years and then
they go and then the company is like.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Oh my god, we can't keep black people.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
We tried, Okay, right, We're done.
Speaker 6 (31:48):
Or they keep them at the same level because that's
also a major problem where it's like they won't promote
a lot of black people like you know, that was
one of the big findings we had is that so
few like I think Fortune five hundred companies have black
people in the c suite, you know, the CEO's, the ceeos, CFOs,
like we just don't make it up there, and they're
just looking at each other like well, I don't know,
(32:10):
I don't know. They just they just top out someplace
and it's like, well, no, you're probably not mentoring them
or pouring into them, and you should because they're coming
in from a different perspective and you're not promoting them,
like you're not even giving them the option typically to
even go for a job.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Well, this has been a deep, in moving, an amazing conversation,
and I thank you ladies both for this. That's all
the time we have today for Beyond the Scenes. A
special thank you to you Chelsea Williamson, and thank you
to you Christiana. IM back way hopefully by now we've
taken you beyond the scenes. Take care of everybody, play
(32:49):
me some music producer. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond
the Scenes on Apple Podcasts. The iHeartRadio, Apple or wherever
you get your podcasts. Want to go even further beyond
the scenes, check out the video version of Beyond the
(33:10):
Scenes on the Daily Shows YouTube page.
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