September 19, 2023 • 59 mins
The Rooney Rule came into effect in 2003 to increase the number of Black head coaches in the NFL. Brian Flores’ lawsuit against the league exposed how team owners don’t take this rule as seriously as they should. Host Roy Wood Jr. sits with CBS Mornings co-host, Nate Burleson, and former New York Jets coach, Collette V. Smith, to discuss the lack of diversity in the NFL’s head coaching positions and how the league can hold team owners accountable.
Original air date: October 25, 2022
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast
that goes a little deeper into segments and topics that
originally aired on The Daily Show. This is the best
way to explain this podcast. Okay, look, the Daily Show
is the club. You're already in the club. You got
in the club. But this podcast is the VIP section
members only. You get a chair, you get a bottle
(00:29):
with a sparkler coming out of it, You get yourself
a little bit of a Norduv, you get your own
personal bouncer, and inside that VIP area, we give you
a deeper scoop on all of your favorite episodes. Today,
we are talking about a topic that Trevor covered earlier
this year when former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores
sued the NFL after being on the receiving end of
(00:51):
What he accused is the Dolphins have been discriminatory hiring practices.
Give it a clip for.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
A long time blackhead coach in the NFL, which is
not a thing right. In fact, between nineteen twenty six
and nineteen eighty nine, there were zero black coaches, nada.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, during that.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Sixty year period, it was easier to find a black
person in space than coaching in the NFL. And finally,
in two thousand and two, Johnny cochran, Yes, the OJ guy.
I guess he was rarely into football. He threatened to
sue the league if it didn't get its act together,
and so the NFL created something called the Rooney Rule,
which said that at any time that there's an opening
for a new coach, at least one minority candidate has
(01:32):
to be interviewed for the job. Which is cool, but
now Brian Flores is saying that these interviews he's getting
they aren't real. These teams are just going through the
motions to satisfy the Rooney Rule. And honestly, if you're
going to make someone come to a bullshit interview, the
least you can do is let them know ahead of time.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Let them know this is.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
A bullshit interview, because that way they can have some
fun with it. You know, think how dopen would be
to get to an interview knowing you're not going to
get the job.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Then you can give bullshit interviews.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Sheelle, what would you say is your biggest weakness? I'm
deathly afraid of football, and I also don't know what
footballs is. Now, look, we don't know for certain why
Brian Flores didn't get these jobs, but it's clear that
the Rooney Rule, despite its good intentions, has done nothing
to solve the NFL's black coaching problem.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
All Right, we are some great guests that are going
to be on this show to help me dissect us
a little bit. I'm here right now with CBS Morning's
co host Nate Burleson. Nate, how you doing, brother.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I'm good man. I'm excited to be on this podcast
and listen. I'm behind the velvet rope. I got the
bottles with sparklers. This is the club. They already got
in the club. Now this is the VIP So thank
you for inviting me into the VIP section.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
You don't get too excited. I know you're drinking Top
Chef vodka, but it's really slowly. It's not we switched
out that great.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
It's water, damn.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Also a little later in the program, someone else with
ties to the NFL. We'll be joined by former coach
for the New York Jets and the NFL's first black
woman coach, Collette V. Smith. We'll talk with Collette a
little bit later about her journey through the league and
her perception of race relations. But Nate, I want to
start with you. Now, you did some time over there
(03:08):
in the league, as I understanding, play a little football,
put a little football, defending a little football. Now, seventy
percent of the players in the NFL are black, yet
they're currently only three black head coaches. There are no
black owners. Shout out to Byron Allen. I know you
try and you're scraping together that Weather Channel money. You're
trying to buy the brocker who you know by a
(03:30):
whole channel.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Hot whole Weather Channel.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I ain't know they was for sale. That brother dropped
down three hundred million like it wasn't shit. Facts, But
can you help explained the disparity in the league, you know, Nate,
between the amount of black players versus black head coaches
and honors, because you don't see that in the NBA,
You definitely don't see that. It's there have been and
(03:54):
there is a legacy of black managers on a regular
basis through numerous baseball team. But in the NFL the
disparity is huge. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You know, it's frustrating because you know, this is one
hundred years of us fighting the same fight and I'm
not exaggerating that point. You have to take this back
to early nineteen twenties. If you're not familiar with the
name Fritz Pollard, you should be. You just type his
(04:26):
name in you'll learn a lot about the origins of
African Americans trying to fight their way into this league
and put their foots down. You know, he had like
a herculean effort into opening the door. Fritz Pollard was
the first African American to be a black quarterback in
the league, be a black head coach in the league.
(04:49):
This was before it was segregated. And then he went
on to basically do his version of the Negro League
for football. If you're familiar with the Chicago black Hawks
and the Brown Bombers, and then the league reintegrated. That
was in nineteen twenty. Now fast forward.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
To this is pre twenty segregation.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
You feel me, you feel me. So this was nineteen
twenty when it was a lot different to be a
black man, not just on a football field. We're just
talking about in America. So he was fighting all types
of fights. And then you had the segregation, the reintegration,
and then football players being dominant on the field not
being allowed in the front office. But before we get
(05:29):
to that step, we have to think about the perception
of the black man in the NFL. There was a
time where they didn't think a black man was confident
enough to be a quarterback in this league, and they
had to play every other position because we weren't smart
enough in the eyes of some. We have to fight
that fight, and then black players, people that were in
(05:50):
love with this game, raised their hand and said, you
know what, I believe I can coach much more than
just a position. I can coach an NFL team. The
reason I wanted to give all of that background because
as a player, I didn't even realize that when I
was drafted in O three. When I was drafted in
OLD three, I was just happy to be there. I'm
a young twenty one year old and I'm sitting there
trying to figure out how to establish myself as a
(06:11):
pro and then have the longest lasting career I can.
But it kind of reminds me of you ever seen
the movie Pleasantville with Toby maguire and he's in this
new world, Yeah, yep, and then everything made sense when
the color appeared. There's a lot of parallels to that
in double chandras. But the same thing for me. I
(06:33):
got in the league and it was black and white
play as long as you can make the money. And
then when I started paying attention to the quote unquote
color like in the movie, it hit me. I'm looking
at all of these black dudes running around putting their
life on the line, and then all these black players
that go into coaching positions that are assistant coaches, that
(06:54):
are helping out, that are assistance to the head coaches.
But the lack of representation when it comes to head
coaching jobs, it just wasn't there. And then simultaneously an
O three, the Rooney Rule came and now you think,
all right, cool, the Ruoney rule is here, which means,
in other words, you gotta make sure you interview some
candidates of color before you hire the person that you
(07:17):
want to be your head coach.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Make sure you talk to a couple of blacks go hire.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah, And I thought that this was going to be
a significant change and this would be a shift, but
it wasn't. Yes, there were more African Americans being interviewed
and brought into the facility, but like we saw in
decades prior, these owners, these gms they were hiring who
they want to hire. Now, let me be honest, I
(07:46):
have to be transparent in this. As a guy who
has owned the restaurant and launched businesses, I also understand
when you own something, put your heart into something, and
it's your business, whether it's financial or it's a hobby,
you can't hire whoever you want. But the representation of
African Americans on the field is as large as seventy
(08:06):
plus percent. You can't help but to be frustrated with
how you see smart, smart players that are capable, and
then they just get rejected year after year after year.
And I've known players that I've played with, players that
I played against that have been knocking on the doors
(08:27):
for trying to be an head coach and just denied. So, yes,
has there been changed? Of course, have we seen more
head coaches? Of course, I mean how could we not.
The years progress, more black coaches are hired and fired.
But at the rate that we want opportunities to happen
for black coaches, we have a long way to go.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Okay, So then to that point, then how has the
Rooney rule hurt aspiring head black coaches? Because when you
look at let's just go to Kansas City. If we're
talking modern era NFL and the homo Eric being to
me who has been an assistant to Andy Reid, and.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
That one of the best offenses in NFL history.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Year after year after year. They've gone to two straight
Super Bowls, lost when they should have won that second one.
But nonetheless, if.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
He contributes, you got to add that he contributes to
the offensive game plan and play calling. He's not just
a face on the sideline reading a paper.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Correct. Andy Reid trusts Eric make these calls are so
his name was not at the top of a lot
of teams lists when it came time to look for
head coaches after that second Super Bowl appearance. Do you
think that the Rooney rule for someone and we're not
talking specifically about a brother like Eric, but do you
think he just should just how many black coaches right now?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Just go?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Man? Just let me just stay where I'm man. I'm
not even gonna go out there and have y'all making
me look like a fool, getting my hopes up, making
me think you're gonna hire me, Because how much has
the Rooney rule created false hope and black candidates, thus
keeping them from even going in for the interview, thus
forced the team trying to meet the Rooney rul requirements
to just scrape up any neat road they can find.
(10:05):
Au You good at Madden, Right, you want to get
the head coach, come on in and interview real quick
for the head coach, but get the hell out of.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Hit You played two in touch resist?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Right? Yeah? Has the Rooney rule demoralized the hopes of
black coaches that are qualified?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
You know, Roy, you make some valid points because Eric
Binemy is one of those coaches. Every single season, every
single off season, I'm asking why isn't he a head coach?
I can't believe it. I'm asking people that are in
the business, like, what's the deal, Like, don't tell me
about who he is as a person, or he's tough
to get along with. Man, I've seen some jerks, I've
(10:40):
seen some nice guys. I've seen everybody in between get hired.
You're telling me one of the greatest minds that we've
seen over the last decade can't land a head coaching job.
When I'm seeing guys that are less qualified go there
and stumble their way through a few seasons and then
get fired. It's frustrating, but You're right, though.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
The Lions have a coach you never coach before. Listen,
not Hayton, not Cad. I'm just saying, of course, of course.
Now here's the thing. You make a point about the
Ruiney rule.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
As as we look at it, it was supposed to
be something that balanced things out right. It gave us
an even playing field, as we say in sports. But
if I'm Eric b Enemy and I'm getting paid a
decent coin, not as much as he is a head coach,
I have a guy like Andy Reid, and shout out
to Andy Reid, like other coaches out there who have
been at the forefront of hiring men of color, even
(11:30):
women in their organizations.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Shout out, Bruce arians down to Tampa Bay. He left
Tampa Bay black as hell.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
He ain't lying, Bruce, real blue.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
One a Super Bowl and go he go, Todd Bowles
and here you goo Byron left with y'all handle this negros.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
He ain't lying. That's Bruce Almighty right there. Bruce is
actually like skinned. I don't know if you knew that,
but so for for me, you look at Eric b
Enemy and if he's looking at the landscape of openings,
he's probably thinking to himself, I'm not gonna go in
there as a token. Have you looked me in my face,
pat me on my back, tell me how good I've done,
(12:04):
and then as soon as I walk away, you make
a decision that we all knew you were going to make.
And that's what Brian Flora said. Brian Floyd said that,
you know, that's what this has become, even though he
was affording an opportunity and he felt like he was
short in that opportunity because of a lot of things
that happened in Miami, but he's saying, that's what this
has become. As much as we wanted this Rooney rule
to work, there are organizations that bring in an African
(12:28):
American candidate just so they can check the box because
they already have who they want in mind.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
What is the league done or has the league done
enough in your opinion to try and punish owners for
not taking the Rooney rules seriously, and if not, what
are some other ways that we can hold owners accountable,
Because you know, Stephen Ross, the owner of the Dolphins,
he was only find one point five million dollars, you know,
and he suspended him for a short time, you know,
(12:56):
for trying to pay a black coach, you know, Florida
to lose game. We need you to lose games so
we can get draft picks. And that's really more of
a competition fine. In punishment, that's more of a you know,
you're breaking the rules type thing. You know, it's let
that punishment was rooted less and lack of diversity. But
(13:16):
I think this is an issue that extends beyond the NFL.
Bro How do you adjudicate diversity?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It's tough. How do you It's like, how do you
tax the wealthy? You know, how do you penalize individuals
that own these teams. Some in it for the right reasons.
They love football, they want their organization to go down
as a dynasty. Others who own teams as hobbies. This
is just another business. So you're finding an owner for
(13:42):
not meeting the qualifications of this Rooney rule, and you
tell them they can't be at the facility for a
few weeks in the off season. Then they'll go hang
out and kick it on their yacht and then come
back and get ready for a new season. I'm not
sure there's something you can necessarily due to the owners,
because when you're talking about fines. I can't even quantify it.
(14:04):
You know, if you're finding a billionaire a million dollars,
is that hurting his pockets? I think we all collectively
can answer that. On the flip side, I think what
the league has done and can continue to do more
of is highlighting the candidates and telling the stories of
these candidates, because whenever a head coach was high back
(14:25):
when I was playing, it was like this story. Oh man,
this this new young offensive mind. He comes from the
tree of the West Coast offense. And here's his father
who coached here, and he was part of the staff
that won the Super Bowl, and they branched off to
all these different and by the time this guy walks
in the building, I'm like, damn, I know this dude's
whole story. I'm a fan.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
We don't be Ryan Rex Ryan exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
We don't do that enough for these African American and
candidates of color, Like, you don't even know these stories,
you know, you can't. You can't tell me much about
Byron Leftwich aside from the fact that he played in
the league and he was a quarterback with a big arm,
and now he's helping Tom Brady eat down in Tampa
as a coach. But what's the story behind him? Like,
(15:09):
tell his story. So I know the fans understand who
loved football, but these owners need to understand. Don't just
go with the higher that makes you comfortable, go with
the higher that is most qualified. There's a big difference.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And I think also, you know, not just going with
the higher that's the most qualified, but sticking with them
and giving them time to get their system and the
personnel in place, which the Houston Texas didn't do. And
we're gonna talk about that after the Texas. We're gonna
talk about the raw deal that the Houston Texas gat.
You got that black coach and then you ran his ass.
(15:45):
This man, I'm getting upset. This is beyond the scenes.
We would be right back. Welcome back to beyond the scenes.
We are talking football and the lack of diversity at
the head coaching and the ownership front office areas with
Nate Burleson. After this break, we're also going to talk
with the first black woman to be on the coaching
staff of the NFL team. She is collect v Smith.
(16:06):
But first, Nate, we've already talked about teams who's scared
to hire or they have no intention of hiring a
black coach. But let's talk about what happens when a
black coach gets put in the game. Now that's the
Southern talk right there. I know some could not coach
the courch Courch the Houston Texans, they scoop up David Keully,
(16:28):
black man and a And of course that's the other thing.
When a black man gets hired. Boy, the press releases,
get the flying board, look at the NFL and diversity,
and we're doing it. And we've ended racism with this
higher one season four and thirteen, and he was let
go by the Texans for what was called quote philosophical differences.
(16:49):
How do you feel about the recent conversations around black
coaches being scapegoaded for lackluster production? And do you think
that they are given the same amount of runway? Yeah,
you know, I'm just being honest. Are they given the
same amount of runway as white coaches to have time
to get things right?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
In my time in the NFL? The answers, No, I
don't think so, just because of what I've seen. You
gave one example, and of course they did hire Lovey Smith,
another black coach who's been in the system. So I
even though I want everybody to get paid and lovely
Smith is a guy that players have spoke highly about,
so I have nothing bad to say about him. But
(17:29):
I do like fresh blood. So you know, seeing him
get hired is great, But I would love the next
generation of coaches to come behind him. I'll give you
another one. Steve Wilkes was hired by the Arizona Cardinals
and he was fired after one season. I remember that
because it was a big deal. I'm like, Okay, the
Cardinals got a new coach, Okay, Steve Wilkes, all right,
(17:50):
and then they go three and thirteen. I believe. Now,
three and thirteen is not a good record. We get that,
But what are you supposed to do? How are you
supposed to turn around a squad in one year? How
are you supposed to fix things in one year? How
are you supposed to, for the example, in Houston, change
the quote unquote culture that is the philosophy of football
in an organization if you only have one year. There
(18:13):
has never been this this meteoric turnaround in one season
when a coach is working with all of the drama
that we've seen some of these coaches work with. Now
This isn't woe is me? All right? These coaches, they
they walk away with a little chunk of change. But
I want to see coaches have the same amount of
time to turn turn things around as some of these
(18:37):
white coaches. And I'm not saying that hasn't been done,
you know, because a lot of people are saying, what
about Marvin Lewis. Marvin Lewis was he was out in
cincinnaty forever and they didn't go to the playoffs. They
didn't want a playoff game? Like what about Marvin? And
it's like, I just say, there's but there's always any
there's an example. There's always an example to point to.
But you can't point to one coach and say see,
(18:57):
like here you are. It's like it's like somebody saying,
see I got a black friend that coaches. You know,
it works.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I think you also have to have a patient and
tolerant ownership, which is what I think the Brown family
in Cincinnati exhibited in showing that they are not here
to just oh, one bad season, get your ass on,
because it's not like the NFL. It's not like college
football where you lose two years in a row, Like
(19:24):
all right, dog, the fans are turning on this to me,
the NFL fans are the NFL fansy. Here's an off
the wall question. Do you think the high expectations of
black coaches as soon as they come into the league
is set because Mike Tomlin won the Super Bowl in
his second year with the Steelers. Then Mike Tomlin for
(19:46):
the next fifteen seasons, for fifteen seasons, has not had
a losing season. Do you think it's Mike Tomlin's fault
for being too good? Mike Tomlin, are you listening to
me right now? Listen, Mike Tomlin, we need you to lose. Okay,
we need to to go. We need you to go
two and fifteen the next three years in a row
for do it for black people. Mike Tomlin.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Okay, he said the bar too heart, he said the
bar too hot. Listen, and he get up there, he
gets the saying in words, he were like, listen, you
don't want to paint the team with the brush. I
call him Baraco Tomlin because he go out there and
win them games and then he'll talk to eight. Listen,
they might have a bad game after you get there
and listen to me, like, you know what he alright,
(20:26):
I'm good with the stealers.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
But Tomalin has done something and I'm joking, of course.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
He's done something very special. Yeah, you have to get
him credit.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Stop tweeting me still, this fan, I know you better
tweet because I'm gonna give Tomlin the props because he
picked up Brian Flores after the Miami fiasco and said, hey, brother,
come be on my staff, come join us. How much
when we talk about diversifying and creating more of these
qualified you know, applicants, And we spoke last break about
what Bruce Arians was doing in Tampa with Todd Bowles
(20:55):
being down there, and Bowles was a former coach of
the Jets and things didn't go right for him when
he was coaching the Jets, and you have Byron left
with in that system. How much of changing the culture
at the head coaching position requires diversifying the offensive staff
positions as well. Like because Andy Reid blackened up his staff,
Aaron Arians blackened up his staff, Tom Lowres insulated with
(21:18):
a couple other you know and Flores isn't the only one.
How much of that is part of the solution to
this issue.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
I think that's a huge part of it because head
coaches have so much influence because when a head coach
is successful, you listen to what they say about the
ex's and o's. Bruce Arians can stand up in front
of the media and say, I would like to shout
out my special teams coach, my defensive coordinator, and my
(21:46):
offensive coordinator that are all black, three black coordinators for
his squad and say, these guys are the main reason
why we are successful. And immediately, as fans, as people
who sit outside the game, your eyes turned to those coaches.
We start paying attention to left, which more than ever before.
(22:07):
We start looking at bulls and say, you know what,
he's pretty damn good. Maybe we gave him a raw
deal when he was coaching for the Jets. We start
looking at these coaches in a different light, and it
is up to these head coaches that are in these
positions to bring up and highlight these candidates of color.
So you know, I hope that what we see over
(22:29):
the next handful of years will change. It's funny, though, Roy,
because every time the season nears and end, we hear
about these young black coaches. A lot of the former
players who are tremendous coordinators defensive side of the ball,
off side of the ball, and we're like, oh, we
got some good candidates.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Maybe let's go seven to eleven.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
And we crap out and we're sitting back where we started,
and it's only three or four coaches that get hired
at the most. But I do feel like there is
there is a shift coming. And I'm not being this
this eternal optimist because I played in the league and
I'm working for the machine. One thing I pride myself
on is being honest, even if it's with my former employee,
the NFL. But I do feel like change is coming.
(23:11):
But well, let me ask you this, because I'm a fan.
Like I told you the first time we met a
while ago, I'm a fan of you. I'm a fan
of the genre. I'm a fan of comedy and general
I'm a huge fan of stand up. Stand up. Not
saying that there hasn't been discrimination or racism or even segregation.
We know the history of where it was and where
(23:31):
it is now. But I feel like, and correct me
if I'm wrong. If you're good, and you grind and
you improved, you could make enough noise to where the
opportunities come undeniable and you be f an undeniable, but
in football you can be be enemy Eric, be enemy,
(23:55):
be undeniable and still not get an opportunity. Is there
a parallel when it comes to comedy in sports? Or
is comedy? Is comedy changed? Is the game changed for comedy?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Social media created a new democracy that allowed for places
for artists who don't necessarily get the same mainstream exposure.
Like if we're gonna go big picture, we could make
the argument that Bernie Mack was denied for a very
long time until Kings of Comedy and Spike Lee came along,
and then even to a degree Bernie had to draft
(24:29):
off of Steve Harvey sitcom success in d Hubley sitcom
success and said being on Steve sitcom for white execs
to go, what about that fourth one over there?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Yeah, what about the dark skun?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
He got a show in him. And even then it
took Larry Willmore, who was a vouch for and bonafid
Hollywood writer at that time, for him to pair it
with Bernie and create what we know is the Bernie
mac Show. So you know, that's kind of the approach
of being denied but getting but get an assist or
someone else having to go, no trust us, Bernie's the
(25:05):
guy versus when you look modern age, I would say,
you know, probably one of the quickest equivalencies I would
make would be the eighty five South Show, which a
lot of people listening to us right now don't know
about what these brothers do. Television broadcast numbers on you
to or the try guys will get there.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
But these show and they tour, and they toured the country.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Correct so and they sell twenty five hundred, three thirty
five hundred seats eighty five South and they have not
had any mainstream television exposure except for wiling out with
Nick Cannon. Right, So, if you are good enough, the
people choose in entertainment, if anything, entertainment is set up
(25:52):
where the people have more power than the ownership. And
if I have an audience, you can't deny me. In fact,
you want me more because you think my audience is
going to now come to your network. So there is
a worth in that. Whereas in sports, the fans are
the most powerless because the ownership knows that the fans
will watch regardless. The NFL knows that they know that
(26:15):
regardless of what you do, you just you might not
watch the whole game, all right, you might check in
on highlights, but when we get that good free agent signing,
your ass gonna be back. And there's a lot of morality.
There's a lot of things that teams do that where
you can question the morality versus trying to win. Be
it racism or be it just like you signed this
(26:36):
player that committed that crime or did that thing, how
dare you? But people still rock with that team because
they know the fans will be there, especially if they win,
especially if they win. Television and movies is different, bro,
because if I got an audience, low key, I don't.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Need you, you need me.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And that's why you see a lot of social media
stars who get cast and a lot of mainstream stuff
because they need that. The studios need access to their
audience and to their reach and the things that they do,
you know. And so I think that you know, to
a degree, there's still a lot of racism and not
a lot of black decision makers at the top of
(27:16):
a lot of these entertainment structures. But at the end
of the day, I think that I have way more
of a chance of getting put on and getting diverse
and getting diversified Ray made away for herself. Quinta Brunton
made away for herself, you know which, oddly enough, both
of those women also still have ties back to Larry Wilmore.
(27:37):
But in terms of creating an audience and a buzz
for herself, those two women were self made and they
just woke up every day with a camera with whatever
lights they could afford at the time and created content
until people started rocking with them.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
And so.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
It's tough. It's like, at least, I pretious way entertainer
has an advantage over a black coach. I can at
least get myself to second base without a vouch.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Now you're preaching, You're preaching, and listen. You opened up
you know this podcast today's episode by mentioning the lack
of not just black head coaches, but then went on
to say no ownership. I mean there's also there's also
this this like glaring, like bolded font that you see
(28:29):
when you realize there are no black owners in the NFL.
When I know that there's wealthy black men and black
men and women excuse me, black men and women that
want to be majority owners, I'm not saying, I mean
correct that I know there might be minority owners, but
majority owners. And I think there also needs to be
(28:51):
more of that because listen, the only way you shake
some of these very loaded phrases that people throw around,
like the good Old Boys Club, the only way that
professional sports can shake that is by diversifying yourself. And
if you're looking at the numbers, we've seen the studies,
diversification when it comes to the corporate infrastructure oftentimes breeds
(29:14):
more success. So I know that the bottom line is
to sell tickets right and have good football, and then
you've got to get the merchandise off and you want
this organization to go from being what the Cowboys used
to be to a four or five six billion dollar brand. Okay,
diversify your product, and I guarantee these organizations will see
(29:37):
more success than they've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
How much. Here's an off the wall question, and I
think it's from a political standpoint where we're eventually headed
as a people when it comes to race and identity
as the next generation of black people and mixed race
people and bipops, et cetera, start matri relating into you know,
(30:01):
their adult lives. The coach for the Dolphins, Michael McDaniel,
who is one of three head coaches that are black
in the league, he got Lovey in Houston. You got
Mike Tomlin. Excuse me, well, you say Baraco Tomlin. Baraco
Tomlin and Pittsburgh and Michael McDaniel. And Michael McDaniel has
a black father, but he doesn't necessarily choose to identify
(30:24):
as black. He doesn't deny it, but he out and
black college. You gotta put gravy and I like biscuit
to that, like he's not black that.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
It would be a little odd though, if he hasn't
been doing his whole life and a reporter asked a question,
He's like, my brother, good question, all.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Right, But he is. He does check the boxes per
the Rooney rule.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
And no, I'm not I'm not I'm not.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I'm not dumping on him. What I'm what I'm what.
The question I'm getting at is how black? Does that
even matter in terms of the league is pushing his
identity more than he's pushing it him self. But grind,
do you think the league chooses to do that?
Speaker 3 (31:05):
I think we know the answer to that. The league
choose to do that, it is because it's it's another
box checked. And Mike McDaniel you know, he's an individual
that didn't lean on that throughout his coaching career. It
wasn't like hey, yo, man, you know, it's like what
was that movie? A soul man. He's not moving around
like you know, hey, hey you hey my brother. Yeah.
(31:28):
But and Mike McDaniel was just a guy that that's grinded.
He's grinded more than more than his race checking the box.
He is a recipient of that tree that I was
talking about earlier. You have to think about uh Al
Shanahan who coaches the Niners, Sean McVay, who coaches the Rams,
(31:50):
and Mike McDaniel were all on the same staff in Washington.
They were part of this this group that saw some
offensive success and they and organizations were like, okay, that
was a really good offense. Let me pluck from that staff.
And it just so happened that on that staff we're
three very intelligent, young, offensive minded white coaches. They can't
(32:11):
help the color they skin, they can't help the system
they're in, and they for damn sure aren't gonna apologize
for having a successful offense. The difference is there should
be more eyes on successful offenses that are loaded with
African American coaches as well.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Where do we And this is the last question. I know,
I know we have to get you out of here
and we got to talk to all the world. This
is a question. That's where I'm trying to figure out.
To listen, I'm trying to help you keep your job.
Like every every question I ask you, I'm righty head,
I'm going make sure Nate can keep his job, make
sure Nate keeps getting invited to NFL honors during pro both.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
I'm good, I'm good, ask away, bro, be honest, I
got you.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
I'm trying to get to the importance of how having
a black head coach, or having black coaches period on
your staff makes your team better in a league with
majority black players. Yeah, when you were playing, how much more?
And this goes back to college too. We can go
(33:14):
all the way back to the age just here to
just talk about your time in the NFL. Just as
a footwall. Let's go back to Pop Warner all the
way to CEFL with you. Did you feel a different
connection when you had black coaches in any capacity on
the staff? Was there a different as a black player,
was there a different connection? Was there anything that resonated
(33:37):
for you in that time.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Of course, Listen, representation matters on every level. When you
walk in and you see somebody that looks like you,
there's a confort level there that you immediately embrace. You know,
that doesn't mean that every black coach is going to
identify with every black player. I mean there's some black
coaches who didn't come from struggle, and they're not going
(34:00):
to be able to talk to a kid that was
raised in a house full of six brothers and sisters
and they were on welfare. Maybe a black coach that
was raised in bell there won't be able to talk
to that kid in the way that he needs to.
Maybe there's a white coach that struggled and grew up
in harsh conditions and might be able to talk to
that black kid a little bit more intimately. But when
(34:22):
you have representation of African American coaches on your staff
in the team, when you sit in that locker room
and you're taking your cleats off and you look around
and you see a sea of black people sprinkled in
with some white players, you would hope that your staff
also reflects that one because you feel like it's only fair.
(34:45):
I mean, the odds are that all of these black
players that love the game so much that literally put
all their eggs in this basket. Once that basket was empty,
went and got some more football legs to put it in,
and then once they retired, they went and got them
retirement football legs to put it in that same ba.
These same players are some of the most beautiful I'm
talking about Russell Crowe, beautiful minds that could coach at
(35:08):
the next level. So we when we don't see that,
we're like, all right, so we're good enough to go
out here and get paid to play, but we're not
good enough to get paid to leave. So's there lies
the resentment and anger. But when you do have that,
it's just different. Like you can walk upstairs and I
can talk to a white coach and we can sit
(35:29):
there and chop it up about anything, and I might
have something that might be a little bit more personal.
And I can go out his office and walk to
a coach like Sean Jefferson, who was my receiver's coach,
black former player who is still coaching the league, and
I can walk in his office and have a completely
different conversation because there's that connection. Coaches that understand that
(35:51):
and they diversify their staff. There's less friction, there's more cohesiveness,
there's less issues off the field, because it's one thing
for you know, let me, let me keep it all
the way one hundred. It's one thing for a coach
to look at a young black player who never had
(36:11):
money and tell him what he should be doing, how
he should be moving, how he should be acting. Another
thing for a black man to talk to a young
black man who might not have necessarily had an older
brother or father figure or someone to speak encouragement, intelligence,
to speak great vibrations into this man's life. It's different
(36:34):
when a black coach does that. Like I've had those
moments where a black coach will walk in after something
happening over the weekend and he'd be like, hey, listen, listen, man,
close close them books up. We'll watch film in a
little bit, and y'all better tighten up. You see what
happened this weekend. See old boy wilding out there in
the streets. He's done. He's done that contract that he
(36:57):
thought he was gonna get. No more. Mark my worse,
he will never play again. So if y'all at a
round and fumble this bag like we tell you not
to fumble of football, you'll be sitting at home at
your mama house. So don't walk around here with your
chest out your chin up thinking you God's gift to football.
Because the game was here before you, it will continue
(37:17):
while you're here, and for damn, sure's gonna continue afterwards.
That's different when you look in at someone that almost
looks like a mirror reflection. So that's to answer your
question a very long winded way. That's why it's important
to have that representation. And you see you see that, Like,
I'm not saying that that Tampa doesn't have any issues,
but Tampa got a lot of black coaches. I don't
(37:39):
see Tampa Bay Buccaneers wilding out. Now there's also leadership
Bruce Arians and there's Tom Brady who comes in as
a veteran. He's been there, done that, of want some
Super bowls. Tom could tell people like, look at the
way we do it. The way we win it is
we tighten up in all areas on and off the field. Okay, cool,
But there's also like it's just different when you when
you see people that look like you speaking life into you.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Yes, sir, well, I respect that Also you know Tom
Brady dedicated, he gave up his marriage.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Okay, listen, they working it out. They working it out.
That's what we heard. Word on the street.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
We Nate bros. And thank you so much. We love
you every morning on CBS Mornings. I appreciate it sitting
the best of everybody over there, Gale and everybody else
and the homie Blad, everybody over there.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah, no doubt. I'll tell Blad and Gail and Tony
you said, what's up? And listen Before you get me
out of here, I just want to say I appreciate
you being a fan of yours for a long time.
I know you have been doing this for decades and
a lot of the work that you have done not
everybody sees. But you are one of the leaders, not
just in a comedic space, but I've seen you grow
(38:46):
into this businessman who works in front of the camera
and behind it. And I don't know if you get
your flowers a lot, but you deserve it, man, You
deserve it. Anytime I see your name or hear your voice,
my ears perk up, man, because I know you are
either going to be dropping knowledge, are you gonna have
me in tears and That's quite the combination.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Brother, Thank you so much for that, and I appreciate
you for coming and going beyond the scenes with us,
no doubt. Let me get some free NFL tickets.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
I got you, tell me the game, I got you Dolphin.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Tell me the Dolphins just came to New York. Damn.
Never mind next season. After the break, we will speak
with Collect V. Smith, who was the first black woman
coach in the NFL during her time with the New
York Jets. We'll talk with her after the break. We'll
be right back beyond the scenes. We are back now.
(39:39):
We are still talking about black coaches in the NFL.
Joining me now is a former coach for the New
York Jets, and you know what, the way the Jets
looking these days, she might need to go on go
back talk to them a little bit. But more importantly,
she was the first black female coach in the NFL.
(40:00):
Collect V. Smith, Court Smith, how you doing today?
Speaker 4 (40:05):
What's happening in roy Wood? Is nice to see, I'm
doing good.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Now.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Is the job occupation of coach like president, where even
when you're not doing it no more, you are still
coach And.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Absolutely nobody wants to come to my house to watch
football because I'm pausing, muting, freezing the frame, checking out
the alignment, that foot positioning, and people get maagged and
I'm like, you could leave my house. It's fine.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Why are you having a tape session in the middle
of a Super Bowl party? Coach? That's not how you're
supposed to watch football. It is that what did you
and your ass need to go in another room like
Peyton Manning and them. You need to have a separate
Manning cast the rest of us.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
I take notes.
Speaker 5 (40:44):
I send notes to my former players wherever they are
with the Bears, the Seahawks. I'm like, I was watching
your game. Here's what you did wrong, Here's what you
did right. I can't help myself.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
So at that time, you were one of one, you know,
in terms of becoming I mean, the first black female
coach to be in the NFL ranks. How did you
get there? But more importantly, did you ever realize how
much of a unicorn you were while you were setting
down this path?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
You know what?
Speaker 5 (41:14):
I never I never thought about that I might have
been a unicorn in this arena. For me, I just
loved football, and I started playing football when I was
forty two.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Years old professionally at least.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
You know, I played with the boys in the street
when I was a kid, but I wasn't allowed to
play organized football with Pop Warner, How absurd is that?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
So for instance, and Pop warners an age where the
girls are bigger than the boys, that.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
Part we outgrow boys in the early stages.
Speaker 5 (41:45):
You're right, but I wasn't allowed to play organized So
being a coach in the NFL was not a dream.
How could I have that dream? That dream was stolen
from me. So, you know, Billy Jan King, Billy Chin King,
was the one that brought it to my attention that
I was the first black woman to coach NFL history,
(42:06):
And I looked at him like she was crazy.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
So you started playing organized ball at forty two? First off,
what leagues are going on for forty two year old women? Where?
What was this? How did that? Because I love football?
I watched that video game football they showing the weird
video game channel. It's like watching people play.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
Well, that's so dope. It is fly, that's fly.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (42:26):
But it's not necessarily a league for women in their forties.
It's just a league for women so eighteen and older.
And there is no cutoff.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
So if you're.
Speaker 5 (42:36):
Capable physically capable to do this and you make the tryouts,
you're in.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
So I was the old check on the team.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
So you play, you leave, and then at that point
is it the traditional post playing trajectory that you had
the same as the men where you played organized and
then you find your way into different organizations that you know,
any of the women that were coaching in the league
at the time just set up the bread crumbs of
how you end up in the office of the New
York Jets and then going to you you're hired.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
So when I started playing football professionally, I wasn't a
great player, but I was a great scholar of the game.
So I had more bench time than I did on
field time. But I was watching film, and I was
studying our opponents, and I was reading the playbook and
asking questions.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
And so eventually, when.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
I retired from playing women's pro football, I went into
coaching my women's team, which was scary as hell, but wow,
because my teammates, my peers, these are players that play
better than me.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
But I knew what to do. In my brain.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
My body was like, we ain't having that, you know,
So It was scary to go from your girl like
what up, homie, to Okay, I need two lines right now.
We're working on w drills, recovering deep paths today, line up.
That was hard to do. So eventually I made that happen.
It was a hard transition, but I was up for
the challenge. Eventually, my women's team had made me the
(44:14):
executive director over marketing, PR events, all of this stuff.
So being a Jets fan, a lifelong tired Jets fan,
I reached out to the New York Jets to say, hey,
look we need some help over here were your sisters,
what's up? And I probably wore them out, like I
(44:35):
was calling, calling, calling, calling, and I believe they were
just like, let me just call this chick back, because
she gonna keep calling if we don't just give her
a call.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
But when they called me, we were cool. They loved
me rightfully.
Speaker 5 (44:48):
So and I got invited to a Jets practice and
at Roy.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
At that time, I was like, I'm busy. I'm doing
real estate, I'm doing football, I'm coaching, I'm doing the marketing.
I don't got time of this. Then when I thought.
Speaker 5 (45:02):
About it, I said I could learn from NFL coaches,
so I could bring that high level of coaching skills
back to my women.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
So I went.
Speaker 5 (45:14):
But what ended up happening was I met the then
head coach of the New York Jets, coach Todd Bowles,
one of the very few black men that are in
head coach positions, and he and I talked.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Shot, he's in Tampa Bay now, yes, and.
Speaker 5 (45:28):
He's got his championship ring, yeah he does. But so
I got hired directly through him. I didn't come through
a program. I didn't come from anybody's you know, from
the Rooney rule or the.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Bill Watson, the initiative, and right.
Speaker 5 (45:42):
I came in because I had a jackhammer, you know that.
I just came banging on in and we talked shop
and he realized I was serious about this and I
knew my stuff, so he gave me a shot.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Okay. But then, being that you didn't come through those
traditional avenues of hire or the let's just call it
the affirmative action highway for lack of a better phrase,
did that gain you more respect or less respect from
the other players and coaches while you were within the
Jets organization? Like how much how you were hired Bowles
(46:14):
brought you in so to a degree that protects you
because people have to trust you based on his pedigree. Correct,
But when Bowles ain't around, everybody knows that the energy
can sometimes shift. So how respected were you within the
organization amongst the other players and coaches because you're the
first black woman to be on an NFL sideline like
this is not yeah, this is new for them too.
Speaker 4 (46:36):
Yeah, totally. You know, I came in.
Speaker 5 (46:40):
All of the players gave me the utmost respect, and
I don't think anybody knew per se that I didn't
come in through a program, that I was hired directly
through their head coach. That wasn't talked about. If it was,
I wasn't in that room, we're on that phone call.
But the players were great. You know, to be very
clear here, there's always going to be one sucker. One
(47:04):
God is hard to deal with, and I had one.
He was a coach and he did not make my
life comfortable by any means, and he let me know it,
and that was challenging.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Do you think how much of that was based on
you snuck in because you're a woman or just because
you're ae, Like you didn't go through what I considered
it be the proper trajectory, or was it strictly flat
out you're a woman. I don't care what you know.
I don't care how cool your schemes are and what
plays you draw up. You need to be in the kitchen.
Speaker 5 (47:36):
Yeah, you know what, I really don't know why. I
believe it's because who she thinks she is. And when
I tell you our very first conversation with this particular coach,
he looked at me.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
I never forget.
Speaker 5 (47:51):
He was sitting there at his desk like this, and
I walked in excited, and I was like, I know
where you played, I know where your coach, I know
where you're scouted.
Speaker 4 (48:00):
I've been following you.
Speaker 5 (48:01):
I did my research. And he looked at me and
then he turned back to the computer like I wasn't
even there. And I backpedal. So, if anybody knows anything
about football, playing a defensive back, that's what I played
and coached. I backpedaled out the office, like what intire
nation is going on? I'm thinking I'm getting hazed or
(48:23):
this is a joke.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, he kept it going.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
He kept it going.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Talk to me a little bit just in terms of
persevering through that and being a woman in that space,
because like, if there's people like that within an organization,
then there have to be people like that in theory
somewhere in the front offices, which means there has to
be people like that on high in New York at
the NFL, at the league office level. So like when
(48:49):
we look at the Rooney Rue. We were talking earlier
than Nate about the Rooney rule, Like, you know, do
you think that's still effective in terms of figuring out
a way to create a diversity pipeline into the NFL?
Or have team figured out a way around it? Like
they kind of like kind of like what the Brian
flore Is Dolphins lawsuit where you interviewed me but you
already knew who you was gonna hire and you just
(49:10):
brought me in on a dummy run. Like it's the
Rooney rule still doing anything to fix the problems.
Speaker 5 (49:16):
I think without the Rooney Rule, we'd have less minorities
in the NFL. I think there should be more, but
I think that people have learned the loopholes around the
Rooney Rule, you know, I mean, it's disgusting what goes on,
but what happens is it's a good old boys club. Right,
(49:37):
it's a good old boys club. I know you from
LSU or from Oklahoma State or New Ohio State, or
you're my child hood friend or right, and that part
of nepotism.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Right.
Speaker 5 (49:52):
I'm happy the Rooney rule is there, but I don't
think it's being utilized completely the right way.
Speaker 4 (50:00):
Right. And so we're.
Speaker 5 (50:01):
Always on a continuous When I say we, I mean
black folks, We're always trying to prove ourselves all the time.
There are some skilled as coaches that need to be
in head coach positions, right, but we have more work
to do. You know, we can't micromanage everybody. And the
(50:22):
end of the day, you know, a franchise, a particular
team should have some kind of right to how they
handle their team, but you have to abide by these rules.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
So they're finding loopholes.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
How much you know? And again your situation was a
little different on how you got in with the Jets,
But how much does the Ruiney rule also create a
traumatic experience for the black of women candidates for these
jobs by giving them false hope and then having it dashed.
Does that make it worse for black and women candidates
(50:58):
trying to enter into the league.
Speaker 4 (51:01):
No, that's life.
Speaker 5 (51:02):
That's what we've experienced our whole life, right, whether it
be corporate level. I know that firsthand. You know, I
could come in more qualified than the next person.
Speaker 4 (51:13):
For a corporate job.
Speaker 5 (51:14):
In youre in Manhattan and I don't get the job,
and I find out who did, I'm like, I'm more
qualified than she is. So this is not I'm not
new to that game. Probably most of us are not
new to that game. I think just having our foot
in the door can't actually bring us more hope. Like
I was close, So I'm gonna keep pounding.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Okay, But then to that point, does it because based
on what you said, what you said, an assistant coach
at the Jets giving you the ice grill, even though
you were qualified, even though you came in baptized with
the blessings of his boss. Does this new rule? So
(51:55):
the NFL got this new rule right where all thirty
two teams you got to either have a female or
a personal color as an offensive assistant. This is mandated diversity.
Those candidates who are hired based on that mandate. Of course,
it increases the number of coaching opportunities, you know whatever,
Like you can build your way up. But art does
(52:15):
that force them into a hostile work environment? Is it
a good way to increase numbers.
Speaker 5 (52:21):
I mean, I think it's a great way to increase numbers.
Speaker 4 (52:27):
But listen, it's a roll of the dice. You know.
Speaker 5 (52:31):
I could be mandated to be hired by the Rooney rule. Okay,
by the mandate I'm in here, and you don't like that.
But I'm going to come in here and work my
butt off and you're going to see why I'm here.
Speaker 4 (52:45):
Right.
Speaker 5 (52:45):
It's just fair. It's just completely fair. And so I mean,
I don't think anything scares us. What I don't think
about the future like that when it comes to well,
it might be hostile, it might not be this.
Speaker 4 (52:58):
Coach that that was wronging. I'll tell you something, Roy.
Speaker 5 (53:02):
My dad and I would speak on the phone every
night and say, hey, how was it? He would ask me,
how was it today? I'm like, oh, my god, it's great.
I love it. I love it. I love it and
I love it more. But there's this one jerk. And
after a few days of this, or a week or
two of this, my dad was like, why don't you
speak to you know, why don't you tell Bowles and
(53:22):
I said, I'm the only woman coach up in here.
I'm not about to be like.
Speaker 4 (53:27):
He's not treating me nice.
Speaker 5 (53:29):
I'm not gonna be that jick. So I just dealt
with it the best I could. Coach Bowls knew nothing
about it. Other coaches saw the way he would treat me.
These players saw it, you know. And it wasn't like
he was he was saying anything nasty to me. His
look alone was almost like shut up. Or if I
was coaching, he would walk in and roy and give
(53:50):
me a look.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
And then I was like, do you think that I
think I know the answer to this question. But if
I'm thinking and I know our listeners are thinking this,
or I got to ask you, what responsibility, if any,
do the other staffers have to making sure that diversity
hires are treated with some degree of respect or is
it not the responsibility to go around and police every
(54:13):
meaning within the organization.
Speaker 4 (54:17):
As a human being.
Speaker 5 (54:18):
I think everybody has a responsibility to check that right.
But then as a coach, we don't have time to
be arned about outside things that are actually inside. But
we're getting our job done. So the other coaches that
saw it, that may have seen it they would look
like to him, and then we would do some strategizing
(54:40):
on special teams. So you know, everybody was just trying
to stay dedicated to the game plan at hand, and
that was to have the best team and create the
best players that we can get.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
So by solving the problem, it almost creates a distraction
to a degree, correct within the organization. Yeah, well, there
has been some degree of progress. Last in the league
we had six women coaches. This year there's fifteen. Are
you happy with the increase in women coaches since you
became a coach? But more importantly is what's happening now
(55:13):
with the thirty two team mandate? Is that the best
way to achieve diversity in the league.
Speaker 5 (55:18):
Listen, any way to get us in there is the
best way. Otherwise we wouldn't have been right. So listen,
If I.
Speaker 4 (55:26):
Had it my way, I would drive up with a
van filled with serious women coaches, and I drive to
every team. Every franchise team would say here, you got
to bye, And I did not drive to the next team.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
The newspaper delivery, you're just throwing just throwing women out
the window like a news So then let's let's let's
end here. Why why is it important for the NFL
to hold the team owners accountable, you know, to the
diversity and inclusion regulation that they put in place, because
(56:01):
you can have all these regulations, but if ownership gonna
work around, and what the hell are we accomplishing? Like
when you look at like and I know this isn't
apples to apples when you look at what's happening in
the NBA with the Phoenix signs and you have an
owner that is now being forced to sell his team
on some Donald Sterling La Clippers esque. We found racism
in the documents, and then the John Gruden being forced
(56:24):
to resign from the Las Vegas Raiders because we found
racism in the document and then the Washington Commanders right
being rumored to have a bunch of nonsense being going
on behind the scenes that's rooted in a lot of
racism and discrimination. So you know, how important is it
that the league do what they need to do to
(56:47):
make sure that the owners are held accountable?
Speaker 5 (56:49):
Vitally vitally important. And I'm down with that life. I'm
down with it because if we don't get it checked,
if the NFL league as a whole does not check
these owners these team owners. It will just keep happening
and we'll be nowhere further in twenty years than we
were fifty years ago.
Speaker 4 (57:09):
So that's progress to me. I'm excited. Listen.
Speaker 5 (57:12):
I'm extremely proud of what the NFL is trying to
do to make positive change within this league for diversity
and inclusion.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I lie one more question. Do you think the fans care?
Do you think they know or care about the imbalanced
ratio between coaches and players.
Speaker 5 (57:31):
Not all the fans give a crap. Not all of
them give a crap. They just want to see their
team win. But I tell you this, the black fans care,
and the women care. And if you think about this,
women make up damn near fifty percent of viewership purchasing
of apparel paraphernalia.
Speaker 4 (57:53):
So they better treat us right.
Speaker 5 (57:56):
And listen, if we were all to get together, we
be in the minority, Ain't I said?
Speaker 4 (58:01):
Ain't we ain't the minority. Let's be very clear about that.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
So y'all are the fiscal majority. But when it comes
to staff, and y'all two percent?
Speaker 4 (58:11):
Hell up, right, So we've.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Hired our one woman. Perhaps you would like to be
a lowly paid cheerleader for seventy five dollars a game.
Speaker 4 (58:22):
That's a damn shame. They're athletes.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
And while we're talking about the cheerleaders, I don't care.
Speaker 4 (58:28):
Look, put some clothes on them chicks.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
Okay, now hang on, now, you slow down. Now, man,
I was with you. Now, look, I've been with you
this whole conversation. You're starting to lose me. Okay, but listen.
Speaker 5 (58:39):
If that's the case, I would love to see the
players walking around or run around the field in the jockstrap.
Speaker 3 (58:45):
Okay, we don't do that.
Speaker 4 (58:47):
Put some clothes on those women.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Oh goodness. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.
And let's not think the next time we see each
other at the NIXT game a year from now.
Speaker 4 (58:56):
Please I'll see you that here, please, yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (59:00):
Let V Smith excuse me, coach always once a coach,
always coached. Also, let V Smith, thank you so much
for going beyond the scenes with us today, and also
thank you to the homie Nate, and thank you the
listener for going beyond the scenes. We'll see you later.
(59:21):
Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts,
the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast
that goes a little deeper into segments and topics that
originally aired on The Daily Show. This is the best
way to explain this podcast. Okay, look, the Daily Show
is the club. You're already in the club. You got
in the club. But this podcast is the VIP section
members only. You get a chair, you get a bottle
(00:29):
with a sparkler coming out of it, You get yourself
a little bit of a Norduv, you get your own
personal bouncer, and inside that VIP area, we give you
a deeper scoop on all of your favorite episodes. Today,
we are talking about a topic that Trevor covered earlier
this year when former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores
sued the NFL after being on the receiving end of
(00:51):
What he accused is the Dolphins have been discriminatory hiring practices.
Give it a clip for.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
A long time blackhead coach in the NFL, which is
not a thing right. In fact, between nineteen twenty six
and nineteen eighty nine, there were zero black coaches, nada.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, during that.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Sixty year period, it was easier to find a black
person in space than coaching in the NFL. And finally,
in two thousand and two, Johnny cochran, Yes, the OJ guy.
I guess he was rarely into football. He threatened to
sue the league if it didn't get its act together,
and so the NFL created something called the Rooney Rule,
which said that at any time that there's an opening
for a new coach, at least one minority candidate has
(01:32):
to be interviewed for the job. Which is cool, but
now Brian Flores is saying that these interviews he's getting
they aren't real. These teams are just going through the
motions to satisfy the Rooney Rule. And honestly, if you're
going to make someone come to a bullshit interview, the
least you can do is let them know ahead of time.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Let them know this is.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
A bullshit interview, because that way they can have some
fun with it. You know, think how dopen would be
to get to an interview knowing you're not going to
get the job.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Then you can give bullshit interviews.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Sheelle, what would you say is your biggest weakness? I'm
deathly afraid of football, and I also don't know what
footballs is. Now, look, we don't know for certain why
Brian Flores didn't get these jobs, but it's clear that
the Rooney Rule, despite its good intentions, has done nothing
to solve the NFL's black coaching problem.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
All Right, we are some great guests that are going
to be on this show to help me dissect us
a little bit. I'm here right now with CBS Morning's
co host Nate Burleson. Nate, how you doing, brother.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I'm good man. I'm excited to be on this podcast
and listen. I'm behind the velvet rope. I got the
bottles with sparklers. This is the club. They already got
in the club. Now this is the VIP So thank
you for inviting me into the VIP section.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
You don't get too excited. I know you're drinking Top
Chef vodka, but it's really slowly. It's not we switched
out that great.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
It's water, damn.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Also a little later in the program, someone else with
ties to the NFL. We'll be joined by former coach
for the New York Jets and the NFL's first black
woman coach, Collette V. Smith. We'll talk with Collette a
little bit later about her journey through the league and
her perception of race relations. But Nate, I want to
start with you. Now, you did some time over there
(03:08):
in the league, as I understanding, play a little football,
put a little football, defending a little football. Now, seventy
percent of the players in the NFL are black, yet
they're currently only three black head coaches. There are no
black owners. Shout out to Byron Allen. I know you
try and you're scraping together that Weather Channel money. You're
trying to buy the brocker who you know by a
(03:30):
whole channel.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Hot whole Weather Channel.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I ain't know they was for sale. That brother dropped
down three hundred million like it wasn't shit. Facts, But
can you help explained the disparity in the league, you know, Nate,
between the amount of black players versus black head coaches
and honors, because you don't see that in the NBA,
You definitely don't see that. It's there have been and
(03:54):
there is a legacy of black managers on a regular
basis through numerous baseball team. But in the NFL the
disparity is huge. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You know, it's frustrating because you know, this is one
hundred years of us fighting the same fight and I'm
not exaggerating that point. You have to take this back
to early nineteen twenties. If you're not familiar with the
name Fritz Pollard, you should be. You just type his
(04:26):
name in you'll learn a lot about the origins of
African Americans trying to fight their way into this league
and put their foots down. You know, he had like
a herculean effort into opening the door. Fritz Pollard was
the first African American to be a black quarterback in
the league, be a black head coach in the league.
(04:49):
This was before it was segregated. And then he went
on to basically do his version of the Negro League
for football. If you're familiar with the Chicago black Hawks
and the Brown Bombers, and then the league reintegrated. That
was in nineteen twenty. Now fast forward.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
To this is pre twenty segregation.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
You feel me, you feel me. So this was nineteen
twenty when it was a lot different to be a
black man, not just on a football field. We're just
talking about in America. So he was fighting all types
of fights. And then you had the segregation, the reintegration,
and then football players being dominant on the field not
being allowed in the front office. But before we get
(05:29):
to that step, we have to think about the perception
of the black man in the NFL. There was a
time where they didn't think a black man was confident
enough to be a quarterback in this league, and they
had to play every other position because we weren't smart
enough in the eyes of some. We have to fight
that fight, and then black players, people that were in
(05:50):
love with this game, raised their hand and said, you
know what, I believe I can coach much more than
just a position. I can coach an NFL team. The
reason I wanted to give all of that background because
as a player, I didn't even realize that when I
was drafted in O three. When I was drafted in
OLD three, I was just happy to be there. I'm
a young twenty one year old and I'm sitting there
trying to figure out how to establish myself as a
(06:11):
pro and then have the longest lasting career I can.
But it kind of reminds me of you ever seen
the movie Pleasantville with Toby maguire and he's in this
new world, Yeah, yep, and then everything made sense when
the color appeared. There's a lot of parallels to that
in double chandras. But the same thing for me. I
(06:33):
got in the league and it was black and white
play as long as you can make the money. And
then when I started paying attention to the quote unquote
color like in the movie, it hit me. I'm looking
at all of these black dudes running around putting their
life on the line, and then all these black players
that go into coaching positions that are assistant coaches, that
(06:54):
are helping out, that are assistance to the head coaches.
But the lack of representation when it comes to head
coaching jobs, it just wasn't there. And then simultaneously an
O three, the Rooney Rule came and now you think,
all right, cool, the Ruoney rule is here, which means,
in other words, you gotta make sure you interview some
candidates of color before you hire the person that you
(07:17):
want to be your head coach.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Make sure you talk to a couple of blacks go hire.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah, And I thought that this was going to be
a significant change and this would be a shift, but
it wasn't. Yes, there were more African Americans being interviewed
and brought into the facility, but like we saw in
decades prior, these owners, these gms they were hiring who
they want to hire. Now, let me be honest, I
(07:46):
have to be transparent in this. As a guy who
has owned the restaurant and launched businesses, I also understand
when you own something, put your heart into something, and
it's your business, whether it's financial or it's a hobby,
you can't hire whoever you want. But the representation of
African Americans on the field is as large as seventy
(08:06):
plus percent. You can't help but to be frustrated with
how you see smart, smart players that are capable, and
then they just get rejected year after year after year.
And I've known players that I've played with, players that
I played against that have been knocking on the doors
(08:27):
for trying to be an head coach and just denied. So, yes,
has there been changed? Of course, have we seen more
head coaches? Of course, I mean how could we not.
The years progress, more black coaches are hired and fired.
But at the rate that we want opportunities to happen
for black coaches, we have a long way to go.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Okay, So then to that point, then how has the
Rooney rule hurt aspiring head black coaches? Because when you
look at let's just go to Kansas City. If we're
talking modern era NFL and the homo Eric being to
me who has been an assistant to Andy Reid, and.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
That one of the best offenses in NFL history.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Year after year after year. They've gone to two straight
Super Bowls, lost when they should have won that second one.
But nonetheless, if.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
He contributes, you got to add that he contributes to
the offensive game plan and play calling. He's not just
a face on the sideline reading a paper.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Correct. Andy Reid trusts Eric make these calls are so
his name was not at the top of a lot
of teams lists when it came time to look for
head coaches after that second Super Bowl appearance. Do you
think that the Rooney rule for someone and we're not
talking specifically about a brother like Eric, but do you
think he just should just how many black coaches right now?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Just go?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Man? Just let me just stay where I'm man. I'm
not even gonna go out there and have y'all making
me look like a fool, getting my hopes up, making
me think you're gonna hire me, Because how much has
the Rooney rule created false hope and black candidates, thus
keeping them from even going in for the interview, thus
forced the team trying to meet the Rooney rul requirements
to just scrape up any neat road they can find.
(10:05):
Au You good at Madden, Right, you want to get
the head coach, come on in and interview real quick
for the head coach, but get the hell out of.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Hit You played two in touch resist?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Right? Yeah? Has the Rooney rule demoralized the hopes of
black coaches that are qualified?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
You know, Roy, you make some valid points because Eric
Binemy is one of those coaches. Every single season, every
single off season, I'm asking why isn't he a head coach?
I can't believe it. I'm asking people that are in
the business, like, what's the deal, Like, don't tell me
about who he is as a person, or he's tough
to get along with. Man, I've seen some jerks, I've
(10:40):
seen some nice guys. I've seen everybody in between get hired.
You're telling me one of the greatest minds that we've
seen over the last decade can't land a head coaching job.
When I'm seeing guys that are less qualified go there
and stumble their way through a few seasons and then
get fired. It's frustrating, but You're right, though.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
The Lions have a coach you never coach before. Listen,
not Hayton, not Cad. I'm just saying, of course, of course.
Now here's the thing. You make a point about the
Ruiney rule.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
As as we look at it, it was supposed to
be something that balanced things out right. It gave us
an even playing field, as we say in sports. But
if I'm Eric b Enemy and I'm getting paid a
decent coin, not as much as he is a head coach,
I have a guy like Andy Reid, and shout out
to Andy Reid, like other coaches out there who have
been at the forefront of hiring men of color, even
(11:30):
women in their organizations.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Shout out, Bruce arians down to Tampa Bay. He left
Tampa Bay black as hell.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
He ain't lying, Bruce, real blue.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
One a Super Bowl and go he go, Todd Bowles
and here you goo Byron left with y'all handle this negros.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
He ain't lying. That's Bruce Almighty right there. Bruce is
actually like skinned. I don't know if you knew that,
but so for for me, you look at Eric b
Enemy and if he's looking at the landscape of openings,
he's probably thinking to himself, I'm not gonna go in
there as a token. Have you looked me in my face,
pat me on my back, tell me how good I've done,
(12:04):
and then as soon as I walk away, you make
a decision that we all knew you were going to make.
And that's what Brian Flora said. Brian Floyd said that,
you know, that's what this has become, even though he
was affording an opportunity and he felt like he was
short in that opportunity because of a lot of things
that happened in Miami, but he's saying, that's what this
has become. As much as we wanted this Rooney rule
to work, there are organizations that bring in an African
(12:28):
American candidate just so they can check the box because
they already have who they want in mind.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
What is the league done or has the league done
enough in your opinion to try and punish owners for
not taking the Rooney rules seriously, and if not, what
are some other ways that we can hold owners accountable,
Because you know, Stephen Ross, the owner of the Dolphins,
he was only find one point five million dollars, you know,
and he suspended him for a short time, you know,
(12:56):
for trying to pay a black coach, you know, Florida
to lose game. We need you to lose games so
we can get draft picks. And that's really more of
a competition fine. In punishment, that's more of a you know,
you're breaking the rules type thing. You know, it's let
that punishment was rooted less and lack of diversity. But
(13:16):
I think this is an issue that extends beyond the NFL.
Bro How do you adjudicate diversity?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It's tough. How do you It's like, how do you
tax the wealthy? You know, how do you penalize individuals
that own these teams. Some in it for the right reasons.
They love football, they want their organization to go down
as a dynasty. Others who own teams as hobbies. This
is just another business. So you're finding an owner for
(13:42):
not meeting the qualifications of this Rooney rule, and you
tell them they can't be at the facility for a
few weeks in the off season. Then they'll go hang
out and kick it on their yacht and then come
back and get ready for a new season. I'm not
sure there's something you can necessarily due to the owners,
because when you're talking about fines. I can't even quantify it.
(14:04):
You know, if you're finding a billionaire a million dollars,
is that hurting his pockets? I think we all collectively
can answer that. On the flip side, I think what
the league has done and can continue to do more
of is highlighting the candidates and telling the stories of
these candidates, because whenever a head coach was high back
(14:25):
when I was playing, it was like this story. Oh man,
this this new young offensive mind. He comes from the
tree of the West Coast offense. And here's his father
who coached here, and he was part of the staff
that won the Super Bowl, and they branched off to
all these different and by the time this guy walks
in the building, I'm like, damn, I know this dude's
whole story. I'm a fan.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
We don't be Ryan Rex Ryan exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
We don't do that enough for these African American and
candidates of color, Like, you don't even know these stories,
you know, you can't. You can't tell me much about
Byron Leftwich aside from the fact that he played in
the league and he was a quarterback with a big arm,
and now he's helping Tom Brady eat down in Tampa
as a coach. But what's the story behind him? Like,
(15:09):
tell his story. So I know the fans understand who
loved football, but these owners need to understand. Don't just
go with the higher that makes you comfortable, go with
the higher that is most qualified. There's a big difference.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And I think also, you know, not just going with
the higher that's the most qualified, but sticking with them
and giving them time to get their system and the
personnel in place, which the Houston Texas didn't do. And
we're gonna talk about that after the Texas. We're gonna
talk about the raw deal that the Houston Texas gat.
You got that black coach and then you ran his ass.
(15:45):
This man, I'm getting upset. This is beyond the scenes.
We would be right back. Welcome back to beyond the scenes.
We are talking football and the lack of diversity at
the head coaching and the ownership front office areas with
Nate Burleson. After this break, we're also going to talk
with the first black woman to be on the coaching
staff of the NFL team. She is collect v Smith.
(16:06):
But first, Nate, we've already talked about teams who's scared
to hire or they have no intention of hiring a
black coach. But let's talk about what happens when a
black coach gets put in the game. Now that's the
Southern talk right there. I know some could not coach
the courch Courch the Houston Texans, they scoop up David Keully,
(16:28):
black man and a And of course that's the other thing.
When a black man gets hired. Boy, the press releases,
get the flying board, look at the NFL and diversity,
and we're doing it. And we've ended racism with this
higher one season four and thirteen, and he was let
go by the Texans for what was called quote philosophical differences.
(16:49):
How do you feel about the recent conversations around black
coaches being scapegoaded for lackluster production? And do you think
that they are given the same amount of runway? Yeah,
you know, I'm just being honest. Are they given the
same amount of runway as white coaches to have time
to get things right?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
In my time in the NFL? The answers, No, I
don't think so, just because of what I've seen. You
gave one example, and of course they did hire Lovey Smith,
another black coach who's been in the system. So I
even though I want everybody to get paid and lovely
Smith is a guy that players have spoke highly about,
so I have nothing bad to say about him. But
(17:29):
I do like fresh blood. So you know, seeing him
get hired is great, But I would love the next
generation of coaches to come behind him. I'll give you
another one. Steve Wilkes was hired by the Arizona Cardinals
and he was fired after one season. I remember that
because it was a big deal. I'm like, Okay, the
Cardinals got a new coach, Okay, Steve Wilkes, all right,
(17:50):
and then they go three and thirteen. I believe. Now,
three and thirteen is not a good record. We get that,
But what are you supposed to do? How are you
supposed to turn around a squad in one year? How
are you supposed to fix things in one year? How
are you supposed to, for the example, in Houston, change
the quote unquote culture that is the philosophy of football
in an organization if you only have one year. There
(18:13):
has never been this this meteoric turnaround in one season
when a coach is working with all of the drama
that we've seen some of these coaches work with. Now
This isn't woe is me? All right? These coaches, they
they walk away with a little chunk of change. But
I want to see coaches have the same amount of
time to turn turn things around as some of these
(18:37):
white coaches. And I'm not saying that hasn't been done,
you know, because a lot of people are saying, what
about Marvin Lewis. Marvin Lewis was he was out in
cincinnaty forever and they didn't go to the playoffs. They
didn't want a playoff game? Like what about Marvin? And
it's like, I just say, there's but there's always any
there's an example. There's always an example to point to.
But you can't point to one coach and say see,
(18:57):
like here you are. It's like it's like somebody saying,
see I got a black friend that coaches. You know,
it works.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I think you also have to have a patient and
tolerant ownership, which is what I think the Brown family
in Cincinnati exhibited in showing that they are not here
to just oh, one bad season, get your ass on,
because it's not like the NFL. It's not like college
football where you lose two years in a row, Like
(19:24):
all right, dog, the fans are turning on this to me,
the NFL fans are the NFL fansy. Here's an off
the wall question. Do you think the high expectations of
black coaches as soon as they come into the league
is set because Mike Tomlin won the Super Bowl in
his second year with the Steelers. Then Mike Tomlin for
(19:46):
the next fifteen seasons, for fifteen seasons, has not had
a losing season. Do you think it's Mike Tomlin's fault
for being too good? Mike Tomlin, are you listening to
me right now? Listen, Mike Tomlin, we need you to lose. Okay,
we need to to go. We need you to go
two and fifteen the next three years in a row
for do it for black people. Mike Tomlin.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Okay, he said the bar too heart, he said the
bar too hot. Listen, and he get up there, he
gets the saying in words, he were like, listen, you
don't want to paint the team with the brush. I
call him Baraco Tomlin because he go out there and
win them games and then he'll talk to eight. Listen,
they might have a bad game after you get there
and listen to me, like, you know what he alright,
(20:26):
I'm good with the stealers.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
But Tomalin has done something and I'm joking, of course.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
He's done something very special. Yeah, you have to get
him credit.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Stop tweeting me still, this fan, I know you better
tweet because I'm gonna give Tomlin the props because he
picked up Brian Flores after the Miami fiasco and said, hey, brother,
come be on my staff, come join us. How much
when we talk about diversifying and creating more of these
qualified you know, applicants, And we spoke last break about
what Bruce Arians was doing in Tampa with Todd Bowles
(20:55):
being down there, and Bowles was a former coach of
the Jets and things didn't go right for him when
he was coaching the Jets, and you have Byron left
with in that system. How much of changing the culture
at the head coaching position requires diversifying the offensive staff
positions as well. Like because Andy Reid blackened up his staff,
Aaron Arians blackened up his staff, Tom Lowres insulated with
(21:18):
a couple other you know and Flores isn't the only one.
How much of that is part of the solution to
this issue.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
I think that's a huge part of it because head
coaches have so much influence because when a head coach
is successful, you listen to what they say about the
ex's and o's. Bruce Arians can stand up in front
of the media and say, I would like to shout
out my special teams coach, my defensive coordinator, and my
(21:46):
offensive coordinator that are all black, three black coordinators for
his squad and say, these guys are the main reason
why we are successful. And immediately, as fans, as people
who sit outside the game, your eyes turned to those coaches.
We start paying attention to left, which more than ever before.
(22:07):
We start looking at bulls and say, you know what,
he's pretty damn good. Maybe we gave him a raw
deal when he was coaching for the Jets. We start
looking at these coaches in a different light, and it
is up to these head coaches that are in these
positions to bring up and highlight these candidates of color.
So you know, I hope that what we see over
(22:29):
the next handful of years will change. It's funny, though, Roy,
because every time the season nears and end, we hear
about these young black coaches. A lot of the former
players who are tremendous coordinators defensive side of the ball,
off side of the ball, and we're like, oh, we
got some good candidates.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Maybe let's go seven to eleven.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
And we crap out and we're sitting back where we started,
and it's only three or four coaches that get hired
at the most. But I do feel like there is
there is a shift coming. And I'm not being this
this eternal optimist because I played in the league and
I'm working for the machine. One thing I pride myself
on is being honest, even if it's with my former employee,
the NFL. But I do feel like change is coming.
(23:11):
But well, let me ask you this, because I'm a fan.
Like I told you the first time we met a
while ago, I'm a fan of you. I'm a fan
of the genre. I'm a fan of comedy and general
I'm a huge fan of stand up. Stand up. Not
saying that there hasn't been discrimination or racism or even segregation.
We know the history of where it was and where
(23:31):
it is now. But I feel like, and correct me
if I'm wrong. If you're good, and you grind and
you improved, you could make enough noise to where the
opportunities come undeniable and you be f an undeniable, but
in football you can be be enemy Eric, be enemy,
(23:55):
be undeniable and still not get an opportunity. Is there
a parallel when it comes to comedy in sports? Or
is comedy? Is comedy changed? Is the game changed for comedy?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Social media created a new democracy that allowed for places
for artists who don't necessarily get the same mainstream exposure.
Like if we're gonna go big picture, we could make
the argument that Bernie Mack was denied for a very
long time until Kings of Comedy and Spike Lee came along,
and then even to a degree Bernie had to draft
(24:29):
off of Steve Harvey sitcom success in d Hubley sitcom
success and said being on Steve sitcom for white execs
to go, what about that fourth one over there?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Yeah, what about the dark skun?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
He got a show in him. And even then it
took Larry Willmore, who was a vouch for and bonafid
Hollywood writer at that time, for him to pair it
with Bernie and create what we know is the Bernie
mac Show. So you know, that's kind of the approach
of being denied but getting but get an assist or
someone else having to go, no trust us, Bernie's the
(25:05):
guy versus when you look modern age, I would say,
you know, probably one of the quickest equivalencies I would
make would be the eighty five South Show, which a
lot of people listening to us right now don't know
about what these brothers do. Television broadcast numbers on you
to or the try guys will get there.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
But these show and they tour, and they toured the country.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Correct so and they sell twenty five hundred, three thirty
five hundred seats eighty five South and they have not
had any mainstream television exposure except for wiling out with
Nick Cannon. Right, So, if you are good enough, the
people choose in entertainment, if anything, entertainment is set up
(25:52):
where the people have more power than the ownership. And
if I have an audience, you can't deny me. In fact,
you want me more because you think my audience is
going to now come to your network. So there is
a worth in that. Whereas in sports, the fans are
the most powerless because the ownership knows that the fans
will watch regardless. The NFL knows that they know that
(26:15):
regardless of what you do, you just you might not
watch the whole game, all right, you might check in
on highlights, but when we get that good free agent signing,
your ass gonna be back. And there's a lot of morality.
There's a lot of things that teams do that where
you can question the morality versus trying to win. Be
it racism or be it just like you signed this
(26:36):
player that committed that crime or did that thing, how
dare you? But people still rock with that team because
they know the fans will be there, especially if they win,
especially if they win. Television and movies is different, bro,
because if I got an audience, low key, I don't.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Need you, you need me.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And that's why you see a lot of social media
stars who get cast and a lot of mainstream stuff
because they need that. The studios need access to their
audience and to their reach and the things that they do,
you know. And so I think that you know, to
a degree, there's still a lot of racism and not
a lot of black decision makers at the top of
(27:16):
a lot of these entertainment structures. But at the end
of the day, I think that I have way more
of a chance of getting put on and getting diverse
and getting diversified Ray made away for herself. Quinta Brunton
made away for herself, you know which, oddly enough, both
of those women also still have ties back to Larry Wilmore.
(27:37):
But in terms of creating an audience and a buzz
for herself, those two women were self made and they
just woke up every day with a camera with whatever
lights they could afford at the time and created content
until people started rocking with them.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
And so.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
It's tough. It's like, at least, I pretious way entertainer
has an advantage over a black coach. I can at
least get myself to second base without a vouch.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Now you're preaching, You're preaching, and listen. You opened up
you know this podcast today's episode by mentioning the lack
of not just black head coaches, but then went on
to say no ownership. I mean there's also there's also
this this like glaring, like bolded font that you see
(28:29):
when you realize there are no black owners in the NFL.
When I know that there's wealthy black men and black
men and women excuse me, black men and women that
want to be majority owners, I'm not saying, I mean
correct that I know there might be minority owners, but
majority owners. And I think there also needs to be
(28:51):
more of that because listen, the only way you shake
some of these very loaded phrases that people throw around,
like the good Old Boys Club, the only way that
professional sports can shake that is by diversifying yourself. And
if you're looking at the numbers, we've seen the studies,
diversification when it comes to the corporate infrastructure oftentimes breeds
(29:14):
more success. So I know that the bottom line is
to sell tickets right and have good football, and then
you've got to get the merchandise off and you want
this organization to go from being what the Cowboys used
to be to a four or five six billion dollar brand. Okay,
diversify your product, and I guarantee these organizations will see
(29:37):
more success than they've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
How much. Here's an off the wall question, and I
think it's from a political standpoint where we're eventually headed
as a people when it comes to race and identity
as the next generation of black people and mixed race
people and bipops, et cetera, start matri relating into you know,
(30:01):
their adult lives. The coach for the Dolphins, Michael McDaniel,
who is one of three head coaches that are black
in the league, he got Lovey in Houston. You got
Mike Tomlin. Excuse me, well, you say Baraco Tomlin. Baraco
Tomlin and Pittsburgh and Michael McDaniel. And Michael McDaniel has
a black father, but he doesn't necessarily choose to identify
(30:24):
as black. He doesn't deny it, but he out and
black college. You gotta put gravy and I like biscuit
to that, like he's not black that.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
It would be a little odd though, if he hasn't
been doing his whole life and a reporter asked a question,
He's like, my brother, good question, all.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Right, But he is. He does check the boxes per
the Rooney rule.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
And no, I'm not I'm not I'm not.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I'm not dumping on him. What I'm what I'm what.
The question I'm getting at is how black? Does that
even matter in terms of the league is pushing his
identity more than he's pushing it him self. But grind,
do you think the league chooses to do that?
Speaker 3 (31:05):
I think we know the answer to that. The league
choose to do that, it is because it's it's another
box checked. And Mike McDaniel you know, he's an individual
that didn't lean on that throughout his coaching career. It
wasn't like hey, yo, man, you know, it's like what
was that movie? A soul man. He's not moving around
like you know, hey, hey you hey my brother. Yeah.
(31:28):
But and Mike McDaniel was just a guy that that's grinded.
He's grinded more than more than his race checking the box.
He is a recipient of that tree that I was
talking about earlier. You have to think about uh Al
Shanahan who coaches the Niners, Sean McVay, who coaches the Rams,
(31:50):
and Mike McDaniel were all on the same staff in Washington.
They were part of this this group that saw some
offensive success and they and organizations were like, okay, that
was a really good offense. Let me pluck from that staff.
And it just so happened that on that staff we're
three very intelligent, young, offensive minded white coaches. They can't
(32:11):
help the color they skin, they can't help the system
they're in, and they for damn sure aren't gonna apologize
for having a successful offense. The difference is there should
be more eyes on successful offenses that are loaded with
African American coaches as well.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Where do we And this is the last question. I know,
I know we have to get you out of here
and we got to talk to all the world. This
is a question. That's where I'm trying to figure out.
To listen, I'm trying to help you keep your job.
Like every every question I ask you, I'm righty head,
I'm going make sure Nate can keep his job, make
sure Nate keeps getting invited to NFL honors during pro both.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
I'm good, I'm good, ask away, bro, be honest, I
got you.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
I'm trying to get to the importance of how having
a black head coach, or having black coaches period on
your staff makes your team better in a league with
majority black players. Yeah, when you were playing, how much more?
And this goes back to college too. We can go
(33:14):
all the way back to the age just here to
just talk about your time in the NFL. Just as
a footwall. Let's go back to Pop Warner all the
way to CEFL with you. Did you feel a different
connection when you had black coaches in any capacity on
the staff? Was there a different as a black player,
was there a different connection? Was there anything that resonated
(33:37):
for you in that time.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Of course, Listen, representation matters on every level. When you
walk in and you see somebody that looks like you,
there's a confort level there that you immediately embrace. You know,
that doesn't mean that every black coach is going to
identify with every black player. I mean there's some black
coaches who didn't come from struggle, and they're not going
(34:00):
to be able to talk to a kid that was
raised in a house full of six brothers and sisters
and they were on welfare. Maybe a black coach that
was raised in bell there won't be able to talk
to that kid in the way that he needs to.
Maybe there's a white coach that struggled and grew up
in harsh conditions and might be able to talk to
that black kid a little bit more intimately. But when
(34:22):
you have representation of African American coaches on your staff
in the team, when you sit in that locker room
and you're taking your cleats off and you look around
and you see a sea of black people sprinkled in
with some white players, you would hope that your staff
also reflects that one because you feel like it's only fair.
(34:45):
I mean, the odds are that all of these black
players that love the game so much that literally put
all their eggs in this basket. Once that basket was empty,
went and got some more football legs to put it in,
and then once they retired, they went and got them
retirement football legs to put it in that same ba.
These same players are some of the most beautiful I'm
talking about Russell Crowe, beautiful minds that could coach at
(35:08):
the next level. So we when we don't see that,
we're like, all right, so we're good enough to go
out here and get paid to play, but we're not
good enough to get paid to leave. So's there lies
the resentment and anger. But when you do have that,
it's just different. Like you can walk upstairs and I
can talk to a white coach and we can sit
(35:29):
there and chop it up about anything, and I might
have something that might be a little bit more personal.
And I can go out his office and walk to
a coach like Sean Jefferson, who was my receiver's coach,
black former player who is still coaching the league, and
I can walk in his office and have a completely
different conversation because there's that connection. Coaches that understand that
(35:51):
and they diversify their staff. There's less friction, there's more cohesiveness,
there's less issues off the field, because it's one thing
for you know, let me, let me keep it all
the way one hundred. It's one thing for a coach
to look at a young black player who never had
(36:11):
money and tell him what he should be doing, how
he should be moving, how he should be acting. Another
thing for a black man to talk to a young
black man who might not have necessarily had an older
brother or father figure or someone to speak encouragement, intelligence,
to speak great vibrations into this man's life. It's different
(36:34):
when a black coach does that. Like I've had those
moments where a black coach will walk in after something
happening over the weekend and he'd be like, hey, listen, listen, man,
close close them books up. We'll watch film in a
little bit, and y'all better tighten up. You see what
happened this weekend. See old boy wilding out there in
the streets. He's done. He's done that contract that he
(36:57):
thought he was gonna get. No more. Mark my worse,
he will never play again. So if y'all at a
round and fumble this bag like we tell you not
to fumble of football, you'll be sitting at home at
your mama house. So don't walk around here with your
chest out your chin up thinking you God's gift to football.
Because the game was here before you, it will continue
(37:17):
while you're here, and for damn, sure's gonna continue afterwards.
That's different when you look in at someone that almost
looks like a mirror reflection. So that's to answer your
question a very long winded way. That's why it's important
to have that representation. And you see you see that, Like,
I'm not saying that that Tampa doesn't have any issues,
but Tampa got a lot of black coaches. I don't
(37:39):
see Tampa Bay Buccaneers wilding out. Now there's also leadership
Bruce Arians and there's Tom Brady who comes in as
a veteran. He's been there, done that, of want some
Super bowls. Tom could tell people like, look at the
way we do it. The way we win it is
we tighten up in all areas on and off the field. Okay, cool,
But there's also like it's just different when you when
you see people that look like you speaking life into you.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Yes, sir, well, I respect that Also you know Tom
Brady dedicated, he gave up his marriage.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Okay, listen, they working it out. They working it out.
That's what we heard. Word on the street.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
We Nate bros. And thank you so much. We love
you every morning on CBS Mornings. I appreciate it sitting
the best of everybody over there, Gale and everybody else
and the homie Blad, everybody over there.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah, no doubt. I'll tell Blad and Gail and Tony
you said, what's up? And listen Before you get me
out of here, I just want to say I appreciate
you being a fan of yours for a long time.
I know you have been doing this for decades and
a lot of the work that you have done not
everybody sees. But you are one of the leaders, not
just in a comedic space, but I've seen you grow
(38:46):
into this businessman who works in front of the camera
and behind it. And I don't know if you get
your flowers a lot, but you deserve it, man, You
deserve it. Anytime I see your name or hear your voice,
my ears perk up, man, because I know you are
either going to be dropping knowledge, are you gonna have
me in tears and That's quite the combination.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Brother, Thank you so much for that, and I appreciate
you for coming and going beyond the scenes with us,
no doubt. Let me get some free NFL tickets.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
I got you, tell me the game, I got you Dolphin.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Tell me the Dolphins just came to New York. Damn.
Never mind next season. After the break, we will speak
with Collect V. Smith, who was the first black woman
coach in the NFL during her time with the New
York Jets. We'll talk with her after the break. We'll
be right back beyond the scenes. We are back now.
(39:39):
We are still talking about black coaches in the NFL.
Joining me now is a former coach for the New
York Jets, and you know what, the way the Jets
looking these days, she might need to go on go
back talk to them a little bit. But more importantly,
she was the first black female coach in the NFL.
(40:00):
Collect V. Smith, Court Smith, how you doing today?
Speaker 4 (40:05):
What's happening in roy Wood? Is nice to see, I'm
doing good.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Now.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Is the job occupation of coach like president, where even
when you're not doing it no more, you are still
coach And.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Absolutely nobody wants to come to my house to watch
football because I'm pausing, muting, freezing the frame, checking out
the alignment, that foot positioning, and people get maagged and
I'm like, you could leave my house. It's fine.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Why are you having a tape session in the middle
of a Super Bowl party? Coach? That's not how you're
supposed to watch football. It is that what did you
and your ass need to go in another room like
Peyton Manning and them. You need to have a separate
Manning cast the rest of us.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
I take notes.
Speaker 5 (40:44):
I send notes to my former players wherever they are
with the Bears, the Seahawks. I'm like, I was watching
your game. Here's what you did wrong, Here's what you
did right. I can't help myself.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
So at that time, you were one of one, you know,
in terms of becoming I mean, the first black female
coach to be in the NFL ranks. How did you
get there? But more importantly, did you ever realize how
much of a unicorn you were while you were setting
down this path?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
You know what?
Speaker 5 (41:14):
I never I never thought about that I might have
been a unicorn in this arena. For me, I just
loved football, and I started playing football when I was
forty two.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Years old professionally at least.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
You know, I played with the boys in the street
when I was a kid, but I wasn't allowed to
play organized football with Pop Warner, How absurd is that?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
So for instance, and Pop warners an age where the
girls are bigger than the boys, that.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
Part we outgrow boys in the early stages.
Speaker 5 (41:45):
You're right, but I wasn't allowed to play organized So
being a coach in the NFL was not a dream.
How could I have that dream? That dream was stolen
from me. So, you know, Billy Jan King, Billy Chin King,
was the one that brought it to my attention that
I was the first black woman to coach NFL history,
(42:06):
And I looked at him like she was crazy.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
So you started playing organized ball at forty two? First off,
what leagues are going on for forty two year old women? Where?
What was this? How did that? Because I love football?
I watched that video game football they showing the weird
video game channel. It's like watching people play.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
Well, that's so dope. It is fly, that's fly.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (42:26):
But it's not necessarily a league for women in their forties.
It's just a league for women so eighteen and older.
And there is no cutoff.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
So if you're.
Speaker 5 (42:36):
Capable physically capable to do this and you make the tryouts,
you're in.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
So I was the old check on the team.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
So you play, you leave, and then at that point
is it the traditional post playing trajectory that you had
the same as the men where you played organized and
then you find your way into different organizations that you know,
any of the women that were coaching in the league
at the time just set up the bread crumbs of
how you end up in the office of the New
York Jets and then going to you you're hired.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
So when I started playing football professionally, I wasn't a
great player, but I was a great scholar of the game.
So I had more bench time than I did on
field time. But I was watching film, and I was
studying our opponents, and I was reading the playbook and
asking questions.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
And so eventually, when.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
I retired from playing women's pro football, I went into
coaching my women's team, which was scary as hell, but wow,
because my teammates, my peers, these are players that play
better than me.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
But I knew what to do. In my brain.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
My body was like, we ain't having that, you know,
So It was scary to go from your girl like
what up, homie, to Okay, I need two lines right now.
We're working on w drills, recovering deep paths today, line up.
That was hard to do. So eventually I made that happen.
It was a hard transition, but I was up for
the challenge. Eventually, my women's team had made me the
(44:14):
executive director over marketing, PR events, all of this stuff.
So being a Jets fan, a lifelong tired Jets fan,
I reached out to the New York Jets to say, hey,
look we need some help over here were your sisters,
what's up? And I probably wore them out, like I
(44:35):
was calling, calling, calling, calling, and I believe they were
just like, let me just call this chick back, because
she gonna keep calling if we don't just give her
a call.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
But when they called me, we were cool. They loved
me rightfully.
Speaker 5 (44:48):
So and I got invited to a Jets practice and
at Roy.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
At that time, I was like, I'm busy. I'm doing
real estate, I'm doing football, I'm coaching, I'm doing the marketing.
I don't got time of this. Then when I thought.
Speaker 5 (45:02):
About it, I said I could learn from NFL coaches,
so I could bring that high level of coaching skills
back to my women.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
So I went.
Speaker 5 (45:14):
But what ended up happening was I met the then
head coach of the New York Jets, coach Todd Bowles,
one of the very few black men that are in
head coach positions, and he and I talked.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Shot, he's in Tampa Bay now, yes, and.
Speaker 5 (45:28):
He's got his championship ring, yeah he does. But so
I got hired directly through him. I didn't come through
a program. I didn't come from anybody's you know, from
the Rooney rule or the.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Bill Watson, the initiative, and right.
Speaker 5 (45:42):
I came in because I had a jackhammer, you know that.
I just came banging on in and we talked shop
and he realized I was serious about this and I
knew my stuff, so he gave me a shot.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Okay. But then, being that you didn't come through those
traditional avenues of hire or the let's just call it
the affirmative action highway for lack of a better phrase,
did that gain you more respect or less respect from
the other players and coaches while you were within the
Jets organization? Like how much how you were hired Bowles
(46:14):
brought you in so to a degree that protects you
because people have to trust you based on his pedigree. Correct,
But when Bowles ain't around, everybody knows that the energy
can sometimes shift. So how respected were you within the
organization amongst the other players and coaches because you're the
first black woman to be on an NFL sideline like
this is not yeah, this is new for them too.
Speaker 4 (46:36):
Yeah, totally. You know, I came in.
Speaker 5 (46:40):
All of the players gave me the utmost respect, and
I don't think anybody knew per se that I didn't
come in through a program, that I was hired directly
through their head coach. That wasn't talked about. If it was,
I wasn't in that room, we're on that phone call.
But the players were great. You know, to be very
clear here, there's always going to be one sucker. One
(47:04):
God is hard to deal with, and I had one.
He was a coach and he did not make my
life comfortable by any means, and he let me know it,
and that was challenging.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Do you think how much of that was based on
you snuck in because you're a woman or just because
you're ae, Like you didn't go through what I considered
it be the proper trajectory, or was it strictly flat
out you're a woman. I don't care what you know.
I don't care how cool your schemes are and what
plays you draw up. You need to be in the kitchen.
Speaker 5 (47:36):
Yeah, you know what, I really don't know why. I
believe it's because who she thinks she is. And when
I tell you our very first conversation with this particular coach,
he looked at me.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
I never forget.
Speaker 5 (47:51):
He was sitting there at his desk like this, and
I walked in excited, and I was like, I know
where you played, I know where your coach, I know
where you're scouted.
Speaker 4 (48:00):
I've been following you.
Speaker 5 (48:01):
I did my research. And he looked at me and
then he turned back to the computer like I wasn't
even there. And I backpedal. So, if anybody knows anything
about football, playing a defensive back, that's what I played
and coached. I backpedaled out the office, like what intire
nation is going on? I'm thinking I'm getting hazed or
(48:23):
this is a joke.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, he kept it going.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
He kept it going.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Talk to me a little bit just in terms of
persevering through that and being a woman in that space,
because like, if there's people like that within an organization,
then there have to be people like that in theory
somewhere in the front offices, which means there has to
be people like that on high in New York at
the NFL, at the league office level. So like when
(48:49):
we look at the Rooney Rue. We were talking earlier
than Nate about the Rooney rule, Like, you know, do
you think that's still effective in terms of figuring out
a way to create a diversity pipeline into the NFL?
Or have team figured out a way around it? Like
they kind of like kind of like what the Brian
flore Is Dolphins lawsuit where you interviewed me but you
already knew who you was gonna hire and you just
(49:10):
brought me in on a dummy run. Like it's the
Rooney rule still doing anything to fix the problems.
Speaker 5 (49:16):
I think without the Rooney Rule, we'd have less minorities
in the NFL. I think there should be more, but
I think that people have learned the loopholes around the
Rooney Rule, you know, I mean, it's disgusting what goes on,
but what happens is it's a good old boys club. Right,
(49:37):
it's a good old boys club. I know you from
LSU or from Oklahoma State or New Ohio State, or
you're my child hood friend or right, and that part
of nepotism.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Right.
Speaker 5 (49:52):
I'm happy the Rooney rule is there, but I don't
think it's being utilized completely the right way.
Speaker 4 (50:00):
Right. And so we're.
Speaker 5 (50:01):
Always on a continuous When I say we, I mean
black folks, We're always trying to prove ourselves all the time.
There are some skilled as coaches that need to be
in head coach positions, right, but we have more work
to do. You know, we can't micromanage everybody. And the
(50:22):
end of the day, you know, a franchise, a particular
team should have some kind of right to how they
handle their team, but you have to abide by these rules.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
So they're finding loopholes.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
How much you know? And again your situation was a
little different on how you got in with the Jets,
But how much does the Ruiney rule also create a
traumatic experience for the black of women candidates for these
jobs by giving them false hope and then having it dashed.
Does that make it worse for black and women candidates
(50:58):
trying to enter into the league.
Speaker 4 (51:01):
No, that's life.
Speaker 5 (51:02):
That's what we've experienced our whole life, right, whether it
be corporate level. I know that firsthand. You know, I
could come in more qualified than the next person.
Speaker 4 (51:13):
For a corporate job.
Speaker 5 (51:14):
In youre in Manhattan and I don't get the job,
and I find out who did, I'm like, I'm more
qualified than she is. So this is not I'm not
new to that game. Probably most of us are not
new to that game. I think just having our foot
in the door can't actually bring us more hope. Like
I was close, So I'm gonna keep pounding.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Okay, But then to that point, does it because based
on what you said, what you said, an assistant coach
at the Jets giving you the ice grill, even though
you were qualified, even though you came in baptized with
the blessings of his boss. Does this new rule? So
(51:55):
the NFL got this new rule right where all thirty
two teams you got to either have a female or
a personal color as an offensive assistant. This is mandated diversity.
Those candidates who are hired based on that mandate. Of course,
it increases the number of coaching opportunities, you know whatever,
Like you can build your way up. But art does
(52:15):
that force them into a hostile work environment? Is it
a good way to increase numbers.
Speaker 5 (52:21):
I mean, I think it's a great way to increase numbers.
Speaker 4 (52:27):
But listen, it's a roll of the dice. You know.
Speaker 5 (52:31):
I could be mandated to be hired by the Rooney rule. Okay,
by the mandate I'm in here, and you don't like that.
But I'm going to come in here and work my
butt off and you're going to see why I'm here.
Speaker 4 (52:45):
Right.
Speaker 5 (52:45):
It's just fair. It's just completely fair. And so I mean,
I don't think anything scares us. What I don't think
about the future like that when it comes to well,
it might be hostile, it might not be this.
Speaker 4 (52:58):
Coach that that was wronging. I'll tell you something, Roy.
Speaker 5 (53:02):
My dad and I would speak on the phone every
night and say, hey, how was it? He would ask me,
how was it today? I'm like, oh, my god, it's great.
I love it. I love it. I love it and
I love it more. But there's this one jerk. And
after a few days of this, or a week or
two of this, my dad was like, why don't you
speak to you know, why don't you tell Bowles and
(53:22):
I said, I'm the only woman coach up in here.
I'm not about to be like.
Speaker 4 (53:27):
He's not treating me nice.
Speaker 5 (53:29):
I'm not gonna be that jick. So I just dealt
with it the best I could. Coach Bowls knew nothing
about it. Other coaches saw the way he would treat me.
These players saw it, you know. And it wasn't like
he was he was saying anything nasty to me. His
look alone was almost like shut up. Or if I
was coaching, he would walk in and roy and give
(53:50):
me a look.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
And then I was like, do you think that I
think I know the answer to this question. But if
I'm thinking and I know our listeners are thinking this,
or I got to ask you, what responsibility, if any,
do the other staffers have to making sure that diversity
hires are treated with some degree of respect or is
it not the responsibility to go around and police every
(54:13):
meaning within the organization.
Speaker 4 (54:17):
As a human being.
Speaker 5 (54:18):
I think everybody has a responsibility to check that right.
But then as a coach, we don't have time to
be arned about outside things that are actually inside. But
we're getting our job done. So the other coaches that
saw it, that may have seen it they would look
like to him, and then we would do some strategizing
(54:40):
on special teams. So you know, everybody was just trying
to stay dedicated to the game plan at hand, and
that was to have the best team and create the
best players that we can get.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
So by solving the problem, it almost creates a distraction
to a degree, correct within the organization. Yeah, well, there
has been some degree of progress. Last in the league
we had six women coaches. This year there's fifteen. Are
you happy with the increase in women coaches since you
became a coach? But more importantly is what's happening now
(55:13):
with the thirty two team mandate? Is that the best
way to achieve diversity in the league.
Speaker 5 (55:18):
Listen, any way to get us in there is the
best way. Otherwise we wouldn't have been right. So listen,
If I.
Speaker 4 (55:26):
Had it my way, I would drive up with a
van filled with serious women coaches, and I drive to
every team. Every franchise team would say here, you got
to bye, And I did not drive to the next team.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
The newspaper delivery, you're just throwing just throwing women out
the window like a news So then let's let's let's
end here. Why why is it important for the NFL
to hold the team owners accountable, you know, to the
diversity and inclusion regulation that they put in place, because
(56:01):
you can have all these regulations, but if ownership gonna
work around, and what the hell are we accomplishing? Like
when you look at like and I know this isn't
apples to apples when you look at what's happening in
the NBA with the Phoenix signs and you have an
owner that is now being forced to sell his team
on some Donald Sterling La Clippers esque. We found racism
in the documents, and then the John Gruden being forced
(56:24):
to resign from the Las Vegas Raiders because we found
racism in the document and then the Washington Commanders right
being rumored to have a bunch of nonsense being going
on behind the scenes that's rooted in a lot of
racism and discrimination. So you know, how important is it
that the league do what they need to do to
(56:47):
make sure that the owners are held accountable?
Speaker 5 (56:49):
Vitally vitally important. And I'm down with that life. I'm
down with it because if we don't get it checked,
if the NFL league as a whole does not check
these owners these team owners. It will just keep happening
and we'll be nowhere further in twenty years than we
were fifty years ago.
Speaker 4 (57:09):
So that's progress to me. I'm excited. Listen.
Speaker 5 (57:12):
I'm extremely proud of what the NFL is trying to
do to make positive change within this league for diversity
and inclusion.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I lie one more question. Do you think the fans care?
Do you think they know or care about the imbalanced
ratio between coaches and players.
Speaker 5 (57:31):
Not all the fans give a crap. Not all of
them give a crap. They just want to see their
team win. But I tell you this, the black fans care,
and the women care. And if you think about this,
women make up damn near fifty percent of viewership purchasing
of apparel paraphernalia.
Speaker 4 (57:53):
So they better treat us right.
Speaker 5 (57:56):
And listen, if we were all to get together, we
be in the minority, Ain't I said?
Speaker 4 (58:01):
Ain't we ain't the minority. Let's be very clear about that.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
So y'all are the fiscal majority. But when it comes
to staff, and y'all two percent?
Speaker 4 (58:11):
Hell up, right, So we've.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Hired our one woman. Perhaps you would like to be
a lowly paid cheerleader for seventy five dollars a game.
Speaker 4 (58:22):
That's a damn shame. They're athletes.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
And while we're talking about the cheerleaders, I don't care.
Speaker 4 (58:28):
Look, put some clothes on them chicks.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
Okay, now hang on, now, you slow down. Now, man,
I was with you. Now, look, I've been with you
this whole conversation. You're starting to lose me. Okay, but listen.
Speaker 5 (58:39):
If that's the case, I would love to see the
players walking around or run around the field in the jockstrap.
Speaker 3 (58:45):
Okay, we don't do that.
Speaker 4 (58:47):
Put some clothes on those women.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Oh goodness. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.
And let's not think the next time we see each
other at the NIXT game a year from now.
Speaker 4 (58:56):
Please I'll see you that here, please, yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (59:00):
Let V Smith excuse me, coach always once a coach,
always coached. Also, let V Smith, thank you so much
for going beyond the scenes with us today, and also
thank you to the homie Nate, and thank you the
listener for going beyond the scenes. We'll see you later.
(59:21):
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