May 19, 2025 • 45 mins
Clinical psychologist Dr Becky Kennedy thinks every child is “good inside” even when they’re behaving badly. So to tackle tantrums or rule-breaking, she argues that parents must set clear boundaries for acceptable behaviour, but also seek to understand why their children are misbehaving.
If a child is acting "badly" because they are disappointed, sad, frustrated, jealous, or uncomfortable, then a parent's job is to help their kid deal with those feelings and build up more resilience to common emotions that they'll experience throughout life.
Hear more of Dr Becky's parenting tips on her podcast Good Inside With Dr Becky
This series on parenting coincides with Dr Laurie's new free online class, The Science of Wellbeing for Parents which is available now at Coursera.org. You can sign up at drlauriesantos.com/parents.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. When it comes to raising kids, most of us
are familiar with the traditional reward and punishment podel. Your
toddler throws a tantrum, time out, your teenager breaks curfew,
They're grounded. But is this really the best way to
raise happy, healthy adults. On today's episode of our special
(00:37):
series on Happier Parenting, le'll meet an expert who's convinced
we can do better.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm doctor Becky Kennedy. I'm a clinical psychologist, i am
a mom of three, and i am the founder of
Good Inside.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Good Inside is a company that offers simple, actionable strategies
for parents struggling with their kids challenging behavior. It's also
the title of doctor Becky's best selling book and the
name of her popular parenting podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Doctor Becky's work.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Is rooted in the belief that every child is quote
good inside, even when they're acting out. And while our
instinct might be to lecture, yell, or take away privileges
when our child acts out, doctor Becky thinks we need
to be a little bit grateful in those moments because
she sees meltdowns and rule breaking as signals important clues
that point to an underlying problem, which needs to be understood,
(01:25):
not punished. Now does that mean that doctor Becky wants
us to condone bad behavior. No, but she does believe
there's a better way to respond.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
When a kid hits, when they're whining, when they never listen.
No part of me is like, oh, that's amazing, that's
your kid's natural expression of their feelings. We should celebrate.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
No.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I always say the right answer is often between two extremes.
And if one extreme is you see behavior that's bad,
and then what we do is we kind of unconsciously
assume our child is bad. That is why we send
them away. That would bring a punishment based approach. I'm
not such a fan. What I think is really powerful
(02:07):
is if we see our kid's bad behavior as a
sign of what they need. And again, that doesn't mean
behavior is okay. But if I always drop my phone
and it shattered, that might be a sign I need
a phone protector. Case. That doesn't mean it's okay that
I drop my phone. It actually means I have a
(02:30):
way of fixing the problem. So if you see your
kids hitting a sibling, for example, as a sign of
what they might need, you're gonna activate curiosity. You're gonna
end up asking yourself different questions. Instead of saying, what
is wrong with my kid, we'd say to ourselves instead,
I wonder what was going on for my kid right
before they hit? I wonder what skill my kid would
(02:54):
need to manage the frustration of sharing a toy with
their sibling, but not have that frustration come out as
a hit. Makes me think about the difference in a
basketball code saying why is my player missing all their layups? Why?
You know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna send them
to their.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I'm gonna make them do laps around the court over
and over again till they figure out yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Versus a coach that says, wait a second, what is
getting in my player's way of making a layup? What
skill would they need? And then when can we practice?
Ooh tomorrow, I'm going to get them in the gym
and I'm gonna really look at their form, and I'm saying, oh,
I figured it out. Okay, I'm going to teach them
something new, and then I'm going to practice something new.
And I don't think any of us would say, oh
my goodness, Becky, what a permissive basketball coach. I mean
(03:36):
that coach is basically saying it's okay to misshots. It's
so crazy. No, we would say, what a great coach.
They're using quote bad behavior as a sign of what
might be going on. Then they can understand what's going on.
Then they can build a new skill and practice and boom,
the behavior actually improves. So that's what the good side
(03:57):
approach is all about. But not for basketball, but for kids' behavior.
I love this approach for two reasons.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
What is it really touches on something that we talk
about a lot, which is this idea of growth mindset? Right,
Your kid is not fixed, their behavior is not fixed.
The goal is skills learning. But it's also kind of
putting the parent's role into kind of like the light.
In some ways, you are kind of coaching your kids,
hopefully towards skills, building towards better emotional regulation, towards better
behavior over time. And I know this is something that
(04:25):
you've talked about a lot, right, this idea that parents
need to know what their role is. From your perspective,
what's the parent's role and how should they be thinking
about it?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I love you for so many reasons, but I love
you for asking that question. No, this whole thing about
what is a parent's role? What is a parent's job.
It came from years in private practice where parents would
come to me about a variety of things, the tantrums,
the rudeness, the clinging, even though they know everyone at
the birthday party, whatever it is. And I'd always say
to a parent, what is your job in that tricky situation?
(04:56):
And they'd always say the same thing, I don't know,
just tell me what to do. That's why I'm big
on metaphors like imagine going to an office on the
first day of your job and your boss saying, do
your job well, and then you look and you realize
I don't have a job description. And by the way,
I don't know what that person next to me does
and where their job starts and ends and my job
(05:17):
starts and ends. I feel like in that position, that
person would say, how could I do my job well
if I don't know what my job is. Knowing what
your job is with complete clarity is a precondition to
doing any job well. And so when it comes to parenting,
we have to change our first question to what is
my job? And I'll give you a definition that actually
(05:39):
works for any situation. In my mind, a parent always
has two jobs. One is setting boundaries and the second
is connecting to your kid's lived experience, which is another
way of saying validating their feelings. And let me explain both.
Because these jobs work in tandem, Let's start with boundaries.
(06:01):
Boundaries are key decisions we make, their limits we set,
and boundaries really ensure that we keep our kids safe.
The reason we set a boundary around TV time is
because we don't think it's great or safe for a
kid to watch TV three hours after their bedtime. The
reason I hold my kid when they're crossing the street,
(06:23):
when they're flailing and saying let me go, isn't because
I want to have control over my kid. It's because
I want to keep them safe and they're not exactly
in the right mind streets to be crossing the street.
Those are boundaries. Now, to be clear, kids have one
reaction to boundaries. Not happy.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
To be fair, it's not kids right like when people
set boundaries to me, I'm not like super thrilled about
that either.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
One hundred percent. A boundary is really a way of
saying to someone else, you want something, and I'm saying no.
Nobody likes having their desires thwarted, nobody does well. So
when you set a boundary, and this is so important
because we have some unconscious belief in me too that
like I'm going to set some really good boundary for
(07:07):
my kid, my kid's going to be like that is
amazing parenting mom. Thank you, I do need to go
to bed. Thank you for turning on the TV. Never,
no child in my house or any child I know
who's normal, has ever said that when you set a boundary,
which is part one of your job, your kid actually
does their job. They feel their feelings. And I know
that's an inconvenient truth, but the reason that's our kid's
(07:28):
job is kids can't develop skills to manage feelings they
don't allow themselves to have. And so if you want
your kid to be an adult who can manage frustration
and anger and not be a thirty year old who
acts like a two year old, then you want your
kid to feel all the feelings when they're two and
not three. I say TV time's over, I turn it off.
My kid does not say thank you. They say why
(07:49):
and all my friends get more screen time and you're
the worst, YadA YadA yadda, And now it's actually amazing.
I can do part two of my job. I validate
the feelings they have, which would sound like this, Oh,
you really wish you could watch TV, or oh, it's
the worst when you're watching a show and you can't
finish it because TV time is up, or oh I
(08:09):
really eat when my TV time is over too. I
get it. What I'm doing, and this is really important
is I'm seeing my kid's feelings as real. I don't
have to agree with them. I don't have to think
the extent or intensity of the feeling is right or wrong.
It just is. I'm seeing it as real. And there's
a wash rinse for pea. I set a boundary. I
(08:31):
think this is right. My kid gets upset, I validate
the feeling. And then this is important because parents say,
oh so, then just because my kid's upset, they get
to watch another show.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
No.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Validating feelings goes hand in hand with holding your boundaries.
So another example, hay sweety, it's time to leave the park.
My kid is gonna say no, I want to stay
in the park. I might say something of them like, look,
if it's too hard to walk to the car, I
will pick you up and carry you because it's really
time to go. Okay, maybe your kid listens, then maybe
they don't. If they don't pick them up, what is
(09:03):
a kid gonna do. They're gonna kick and scream. And
as I carry my kid to the car, I'm going
to the other part of my job. Oh it stinks
to leave before you want. You probably wish you were
an adult and can make all your own decisions. I
get that leaving the park is so hard, but I
am not bringing them back to the park. I am
saying that while I'm carrying them in a sturdy way
(09:24):
to the car. And that job boundaries validation. That's always
an orienting principle. I come back to.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
There's something else you said about the boundaries that I
think is really important, because I think sometimes when parents
said a boundary, they think it's like they're telling their
kid what to do, like stop with the TV. But
you've algae that a boundary works a little bit differently.
It has that part, but it's actually something else. What
is the something else?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
All the time I hear from parents, and honestly I
hear from nonparents, just adults. My mother in law does
not respect my boundaries. My kid does not listen to
my boundaries. Let me share my definition of boundaries and
then we can hear together why those things don't really
make sense. First, a boundary is something I tell someone
I will do and it requires the other person to
(10:08):
do nothing. So over and over I hear frustration from
parents my kids don't respect my boundaries. And I'll say,
tell me about a boundary you set and they say, oh, no,
jumping on the couch. My kid is jumping on the couch.
And I look at them and I say, stop jumping
on the couch. We don't do that. And then we
look at that kind of definition. Did you tell your
kids something you will do? And they say no? Does
(10:30):
the success of your boundary require your kid to do nothing? No?
And this is like an aha moment where they're like,
am I not setting a boundary? But there's no, You're not.
You're making a request and we have to make requests
all the time. But requests are boundaries. This is a boundary.
And this is why I always say good inside parenting.
It's sturdy. It's not gentle. And I don't mind the
(10:51):
word gentle. Everyone's like, is it gentle? I just think
the words we use have a power to evoke different
parts of us. I know, for me, I'm not really
accessing being gentle. I'm not accessing being harsh. I'm doing
the thing in the middle. I'm being sturdy. Here's a boundary. Hey, sweetie,
I need to get off the cat. They look at
me and keep jumping because I have one of those
(11:11):
kids too. This is a boundary. I'm gonna walk over
to you, and if by the time I get there
it's still too hard to get off the couch, I
will put my arms around you. I will place you
on the ground and I'll show you a safer place
to jump that's not right in front of our class table. Okay,
to be clear, when I go to pick up my kid,
would you better bet I'm gonna do again. My kid's
(11:33):
gonna say, give me one more chance, two more jumps.
I don't want to get off. You're so mean. Does
it matter? My boundary is what I do. It's an
embodiment of my authority. My kid's gonna probably try to
make a dodge back to the couch. What they're saying is,
am I more powerful than you are? You gonna let
me override the cockpit and be in charge. And they
(11:53):
need to test that because actually they need to know
that we are the sturdy pilot who will not let
them pilot complain, especially not when they're in that state.
And then I would block my kid. And then that
other part, Oh, it's no fun to jump on the floor.
You wish you could jump on the couch. Oh, I
get that. That is absolutely not an option. Ugh, And
I guess those are your choices. No jumping anywhere or
(12:16):
jump somewhere less fun. That's so tricky. I have a
feeling you're going to figure it out. That to me
is the essence of boundary setting, and that, to me
is the essence of real sturdiness. And so when parents
say you're not punishing your kids, you're just raising snowflakes,
I'm like, go watch me in action. You are sorely,
sorely mistaken.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
But this gets to I think another misconception parents have
about the kind of second part, the sort of validating
the emotion's part, because I think sometimes parents think that
that requires them to be the kind of so called
happiness police, that something about managing kids' safety requires managing
emotional safety. But you've sort of pushed back against the
happiest police idea. Why is it that we have to
(12:56):
kind of allow our.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Kids to go through these moments of discomfort? Oh? Yes,
you know. These are one of these moments where I'll
be out with friends, totally social dinner and someone will
make some offhand common like you don't you just want
your kids to be happy? It's all we want, right,
And I feel like my husband will look at me like, Becky, please,
just like he knows where's coming next, Just not and
(13:18):
move on. But I can't because I'll be like, no,
that's not what I want, And it's so interesting. How again,
then people go to the other extreme. People will say
to me, you want your kids to be unhappy? WHOA Like? No,
I'm not like wishing unhappiness on the humans I love
the most. But the idea of wanting our kids to
be happy, I think is a well intentioned but widely
(13:38):
misguided wish that actually has the complete opposite impact on kids.
They're developing circuitry in their body for what range of
emotions am I set up to cope with? How capable
am I of dealing with uncomfortable experiences? I'm talking about
(13:59):
things like, mom, I'm the only one in my class
who can't read and as a parent, let me to
say it's painful when your kid says that, because we
love our kids so much, right, I think what we're
often tempted to say is something like that can't be true,
or everybody reads at their own pace, or okay, but
you are the only kid who can do multiplication. So
(14:21):
what we have the urge to do is we see
our kid disappointed, sad, frustrated, mad, jealous, some version of uncomfortable,
and to some degree we think our job in the
moment is to pluck them out of that feeling and
bring them to a happy feeling. Another metaphor I like
(14:41):
to think of is like we find them on a bench,
and this is the bench if I can't read books
yet I'm noticing people around me can do things I can't, which,
by the way, will happen for the rest of your life.
Or people have things I don't have, or I just
feel less than. And when we see our kid on
that bench, we see a sunnier bench and we're like,
just like, come with me there, it's so sunny there.
(15:03):
Why is this not ideal? Because resilience in adulthood is
actually based on our ability to kind of proverbially like
sit on all the benches we come across in life.
I know my kid when they're older, at some point,
they're going to I don't know, be in a class
in college where they're intimidated by people. They're going to
get a bad grade. They're not going to be invited
to someone's birthday party. They're going to get fired for
(15:24):
a job. They're going to think they're going to get
a job and not get it. They're not going to
get a promotion. They're going to be embarrassed in public.
All of the things that happen in childhood won't happen
in the exact form in adulthood, but they will happen
with the same set of feelings in adulthood. And if
when my kid is an adult, what they've learned is
when I feel jealous, sad, nervous, mad, less than, I
(15:49):
look around for the happy, where is the happy? All
that sets my kid up for is anxiety and fragility.
So what's the alternative? And this is going to sound
so counterintuitive, but I'll explain it. Let me go back
to that example. My kids on this bench are feeling
less than, which sounds like I'm the only one who
can't read now again, we don't have to go together extremes.
(16:10):
I say, it's so true, you're so stupid. Duh, No,
do not recommend. Okay, but if you think about your
kid on that bench, what would it mean to just
sit on the bench with them in some ways to
say to your kid, you're on this bench and you're uncomfortable.
I'm not scared of this bench. I don't need to
pluck you off the bench. The only reason I would
need to do this if this bench was like going
to eat you alive. It's just a bench, by the way,
(16:32):
you'll sit here a million times. So let me just
PLoP down next to you. And then what you're doing
is the most profound thing we can do as parents,
is you're making sure your kid is no longer alone.
Feelings don't overwhelm kids. Feeling alone in feelings overwhelm kids.
And it's actually the experience of repeated aloneness in a
(16:52):
feeling that leads to adult anxiety because you get encoded
in the overwhelm of being alone. So I just want
to give you a few lines because I wanted to
make things concrete. First thing you can say to your
kid when they say anything they're upset about I'm so
glad you're talking to me about this.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Not just parenting advice, is just out of general relationship advice.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I was talking about this on a podcast a little
while ago, and my husband, who doesn't usually listen, was like,
you know, those three lines just saying when I talk
to you about stuff that's hard at work, like I
would like those lines. And so first line is just
I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. The
second line is saying to a kid, I believe you,
and then the third line is just tell me more,
(17:32):
because what you're really doing is you're saying to your
kid in this powerful way, I am not afraid of
your feelings. They will not swallow anyone. And because I
can tolerate this feeling in you, you will be able
to tolerate this feeling in you now. Ironically, Laurie, when
it comes to happiness, regulating difficult emotions is a prerequisite.
(17:56):
So really, if we quote want our kid to be happy,
what we should really focus on is not fixing their unhappiness,
but really helping them sit with it and cope with it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Leting your kids work through their own disappointment is hard
it's painful to watch someone you love struggle, especially when
your impulse is to step in and fix everything. But
just like adults, children need to learn how to tolerate
discomfort in order to feel more at ease with themselves.
Doctor Becky believes that raising resilient kids involves holding both
of these truths at the same time. That we need
(18:30):
to let our kids experience discomfort even though it sucks.
After the break, we'll explore this idea of multiplicity and
dive deeper into how optimizing for long term happiness often
means learning to sit with short term distress. For both
children and adults. That happiness lab will be right back.
(18:55):
From an evolutionary perspective, our most important goal in life
is to make sure our kids survive so they can
get their genes into the next generation. It therefore makes
sense that parents have a built in motivation to do
everything in their power to protect their children. If your
kid wanders near a saber tooth tiger, it's your evolutionary
duty to step in and keep them safe. But in
modern society, that instinct to protect at all costs often
(19:18):
leads to overparenting. The tendency to take over for your
kid in nearly every tricky situation. Study after study shows
that overparenting can inadvertently hurt the people we love. Most
research shows that overparenting can inhibit a child's capacity for autonomy,
problem solving, and even emotional resilience. So, when your son
or daughter finds themselves in a sticky situation, when should
(19:41):
you let them face the consequences and figure things out alone?
And when should you offer a helping hand. Clinical psychologist
doctor Becky Kennedy says that parents need to choose their
moments of intervention very carefully.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
There are times you should swoop in. If your toddler
is about to run across the street of New York City,
swoop in.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
If they're sleeping in on the day of the sat
you know, maybe give them a little nudge.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Swoop in, right, swoop in. But swooping in and it
has a more surprising impact on kids than we think,
especially as they get older, because kids know someone swoops
in because something's in emergency, or because someone doesn't see
me as capable. And where are kids mirrors?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
To me?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
This is one of the most powerful things to think
about as a parent. If I'm my kid's mirror, then
I reflect to them the version of who they are.
And so if I'm often reflecting my kid's lack of capability,
which I don't think i'm doing, but I might unintentionally
be doing by fixing so many things, it can't be
surprised that as my kid gets older, I keep saying
(20:48):
to friends, why can they figure things out? Why can't
they even remember their water bottle? Shouldn't they be able
to do this at age sixteen? Age doesn't bring skills.
This is what I always tell parents. People say, at
what age will my kids stop having these meltdowns? I
feel like it's like someone saying, at what age will
my kid be able to swim? And I say, well,
are they learning how to swim? No, I'd be like,
(21:10):
I'm not blaming you, but like at a certain age,
no one's like gifted swimming. No one is gifted competence
and capability and confidence and regulation. It's not years, it's
what you do in the years. And so reflecting capability
is a really big part of the good inside approach.
(21:31):
It's deeply uncomfortable because reflecting capability of your kid has
to go hand in hand in recognizing potential discomfort in
your kid. And just letting it. That's the way I
would say, let it right. And again, am I gonna
let my kid miss their sat? No, I'm a reasonable human.
Am I gonna let my kid forget their water bottle? When,
(21:54):
by the way, we've been talking about remembering your own
water bottle. Yes, here's actually a really important difference. Too
often in those situations we do it from a place
of frustration and punishment. So I'll say I'm not bringing
you your water bottle. You can deal with that. Nobody
finds that inspirational. This is very different, Swede. I'm not
going to bring you your water bottle. You're a strong kid,
(22:16):
You'll figure it out. And when you get home, let's
figure out it. Just a better system to remember it.
All the different things that happened that are hard. I
really do say to myself, this is amazing. This is
amazing learning that one of my kids waited so long
and has to stay up late to work hard on
a paper that they're now not going to be able
to review with their teacher before, even though their teacher
said they'll do that and they probably won't receive a
great pan. What amazing warning. I love this.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
This is a gift, right, Like you know, how much
are they going to get better over time? Like they're
never going to put things off again because look at
the terrible consequences they got, which is so important. But
the problem as a parent, though, is that to hold
I'm doing this wonderful thing I'm giving my kid learning
it's a gift. You have to hold that at the
same time as but I love my kid, I'm supposed
to be a good parent. I'm allowing discomfort in a
(23:00):
way that I could swoop in and fix and I've
committed to that. And that gets to something else that
I know you talk about a lot, this idea of
needing to hold psychologically, this multiplicity as you've called it,
that like you can be a really good parent and
you can also let your kid forget their water bottle.
You can be a really good parent and you could
not remind them about the homework, and that might cause
them to get a bad grade or cause them to
(23:21):
kind of have a really tough night when they're pulling
it all nighter. Talk to me about this multiplicity. How
do we hold both of these things at once? And
why is it so important to get good at doing this?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So important? And again, this is where it skills for life.
So holding multiplicity is important with your kids, so important
with yourself at work in everything. A couple things I
want to say about that. Number one, I just want
to be on a bashed saying I'm very long term
greedy in my parenting approach. Like if I had to
choose between short term benefit and long term benefit, by
(23:53):
the way, I think we often can get both, but
I would choose long term. So when you do, let
your kid experience life, by the way, assuming again, you
can't say to your kid and expect it to be effective, See,
you stayed up late and you got a bad grade. Again,
it's not that it's like, huh, I wonder what happened?
What do you to do differently next time? Oh, you'd
have to start sooner. I wonder if you have a
(24:15):
paper coming up that you would think, Oh, you do what?
Oh it's due to wednesdays from now. I wonder when
you'd have to start? Oh, be the Wednesday before. Oh
my goodness, that's such a good idea. I wonder how
you'll remembered do that? How would I? Oh, what, you're
gonna put it in your calendar? Right? Leaving my kid
to the well. That is really important. But I think
the operating principle around kind of multiplicity that lets me
(24:39):
do that is Okay. I see my kid's distress here,
but I'm not optimizing for their short term happiness. I
am optimizing for their long term resilience. Those are very
different things. I mean, this morning, I hadn't gone to
the gym in weeks, and I was like, Today's day.
I knew today was the day, just for twenty minutes.
(24:59):
I just wanted to get that post of energy in
the morning. If I was optimizing for my short term happiness,
you better bet I'm staying in bet you would be
a bed. And so for being long term greed having
that two things are true. My kid is having a
hard time today and I can support them and use
this moment to build resilience for the future. We need
support for us as parents to be able to do that.
(25:21):
Scripts a group of parents are saying, yeah, I'm doing
that too. We don't have a culture of supporting parents.
We do when you're pregnant. It's actually so interesting to me.
When you're pregnant, people buy books, they take CPR courses,
they invest a lot of money and time, and we're
told in a societal way, that's what we should do
(25:42):
as soon as you have a kid. We've really internalized
this idea of maternal instinct. People say, is, madam, it's
something I should be able to figure out on my own.
I shouldn't need help because of this lack of what
we are living with, like all of these fires. It's
like whack a mole. And so that's a big picture
of my mission is just to change that idea is
(26:03):
to say, hey, my guess is, of all of your values,
parenting in your kid's mental health probably towards the top
of your list. My guess is if you look at
your even expenses and the way you spend your energy,
actually investing in the support a parent we need is
probably low on the list. It's so out of alignment.
Once we have that, it's a lot easier without that.
(26:23):
When we're alone, you just spiral.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
And this is why I love your work so much,
because you're kind of helping parents get these tools, and
sometimes using those tools themselves can be really good for
parents well being. I mean, one of my favorite tools
that I know is one of your go tos is
the idea of getting curious, especially when you're dealing with
a bad behavior or a failure or a screw up.
Why is curiosity such a superpower when you're dealing with failure.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I think curiosity is the opposite of like judgment, and
I think so often when we struggle as adults, we
just judge ourselves right away. I think that's because when
we had hard moments when we were kids, when we
had bad behavior, guess what most of us were probably
met with judgement. Go to your room. Why would you
(27:09):
do that? You're so selfish, you're crying. I'll give you
something to cry about. And so we've wired in our
body struggle next to harsh judgment. And even though the
harsh judgment part was initially someone else's voice, we've internalized
it so much. This is so sad to me. It's
become our own voice. And then we're hard on ourselves
when we're triggered, and we're reactive to our kids. But
(27:32):
the truth is we react to them based on our
own circuitry. We can't do something with our kids that
we're not working on with ourselves. If I have wired
my struggles next to judgment, then it makes sense. I'm
going to say to my kid, what's wrong with you?
You're so dramatic, you always ruin things, even though later
at night I'm thinking, why did I say that? I
promise myself I wouldn't say that. What is the answer
(27:53):
to this? Change starts by changing your interaction with yourself,
which is why I care so deeply about all the
reparenting work we do. That is the most powerful thing
to be able to be the parent you want to be,
and curiosity is the key. So let's say, as an adult,
I just yelled at my kid. I think judgment activates
so quickly. I'm such a monster. I messed up my
(28:15):
kid forever. If anyone ever saw me, they wouldn't even
believe the type my mother I am. I've said this
to myself. I'm like doctor Becky, like I'm yelling at
my kid? What is wrong with me? But I think
I wonder what was going on for me at that moment,
what led me to yell at my kid when they
complained about dinner? And this is powerful what actually happened
earlier in my day or a week that probably put
(28:38):
me in the up to the brim place I was in.
So then complaining about dinner is just a straw that
broke the camel's back, and I yelled, this is curiosity.
And I think one of the things again that we
have to reparent ourselves about, is we mistakenly think being
curious about bad behavior means you're condoning bad behavior. But again,
(29:00):
like I always think about other areas, like if I'm
curious about why my star football quarterback keeps throwing interceptions,
why are they doing that? Is it they're positioning, is
it they're timing. If a coach was saying that, I
just can't imagine another coach would be like, oh, so
you're condoning all these interceptions. It's just like, actually, so weird.
Curiosity is the key to change. Judgment is actually the
(29:24):
key to being stuck and never changing, just ineffective. So curiosity,
I wonder why I did that to me? Another phrase
that such beautiful, compassionate curiosity is I'm a good person.
I was having a hard time. I wonder what came
up for me at that moment, because usually that's what happens,
like something comes up. I have a fear about my kid.
(29:46):
I worry people think I'm a bad parent. I worry
my kid's a sociopath. Well, as long as I'm thinking
about my four year old as a sociopath, I guess
it makes sense that I'm yelling at that. Okay, how
else would I have to interpret their behavior to have
a different thought and therefore probably be more able to
stay calm. See now, curiosity allows me to make positive change.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
And these are all cases where you're using that curiosity
yourself as a parent, or maybe you did a behavior
that you know wasn't so awesome. You've argued that we
can use the same kind of technique when we're dealing
with a kid's bad behavior. Let's say you know, you
find out your teenager lied to you they went to
some party that they weren't supposed to go. To walk
me through how you would use curiosity in that way,
and maybe your our boundary setting and our kind of
(30:27):
validating feelings job as well.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
So let's say you have a teenager who lied to you.
Lying to me is one of the best things to
start with, because lying there's an outlying that is so
triggering to us as parents, and we interpret it so
personally my teenager doesn't respect me, or we kind of
like center ourselves. Whenever I work with parents from the
things I say is okay, Let's say you have someone
(30:50):
in your life you love, why would you lie to them?
So interesting, Moore, I have never had anyone say I
would never.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
We know that this is a behavior that comes up occasionally, right, right,
I mean, why would you lie to someone that you
love and respect?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Why do you think you would?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
You were going through something terrible, you were really scared,
something else was off that was like making this either
so scary or so overwhelming that you had no choice.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
You know, I'll add to it for me, and I
think I would lie because I was scared of someone's reaction.
I think I would also lie because on some level
I was so ashamed or embarrassed about something I did
that if I had to like share the truth, it's
almost like I'd have to like relive it again, like
I'd have to face it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, the lies are off in the doubling down on
just being avoidant of what we've done and the shame
of what we've done.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Right. People think kids who lie, like, again, you're so sociopathic. Actually,
there's something so vulnerable in that moment. They're like, I
actually feel so guilty that it's so consuming me that
I have to almost pretend this thing didn't happen to
survive the moment. Okay, so you have this kid who
lies right, and again, let's say we can maintain calm
and not be triggered and not make it about us.
(31:56):
How could you use curiosity? And I'm gonna model this
exactly because it's gonna create controversy because it's different, and
parents are gonna say, isn't that just letting them get
away with it? We're so used to this adversarial control mindset.
So let's say my kids like, no, I didn't take
money from your durer. Meanwhile, I have some like ness
cam like seeing my son like take it so obvious.
(32:17):
Leading with curiosity would sound like this, this is actually
important in the moment, I probably wouldn't even ask. I
would actually say is a life lesson? Never ask someone
a question you know the answer to. All you're doing
is setting yourself up to get more frustrated with your
kid and say, look, I know you took that money
from the drawer, and like, I don't even want to
get into I just know it. I saw it on
the video. I'm not going to lead with the punishment.
(32:38):
I'm not going to lead with a lecture. There must
have been something about going out to dinner with your
friends that felt so important that you also feel like
I really didn't understand that you can be honest with
me about and that's not my way of saying, it's okay,
but we can deal with the okay not okay part later,
And I'm pretty sure you know it's not okay to
steal her lie. What's actually really more important to me
is our relationship and figuring out what actually I could
(33:01):
do to make it easier to tell me the truth.
I know parents listening are like, w tf.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
You are going to make me raise a child who
will lie to me forever. I would bet one hundred
dollars your child will lie to you less because your
kid will tell you the truth when they believe they
can maintain.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
A connection with you when they tell you the truth.
Kids are oriented by attachment from toddlers through teens, all
of us are. They are primed to notice what will
I tell my parent that will make them distance themselves
from me? And what can I tell my parent that
can still be held in love and safety and in
a way when your kid lies to you. Ironically, they're
(33:44):
doing that to temporarily preserve attachment because on some level
that thinking, as long as I don't tell my parent
the truth, we're still connected. As soon as I tell
my parent the truth, we're broken. And so anything we
do to further that pattern threat and if you do
that again next time, you're grounded. All we're doing, ironically,
is making a kid even more predispositioned to lie because
(34:06):
they can't beat the evolutionary system that just wants to
be connected to you. When you lead instead with curiosity,
you actually strengthen your relationship and you develop a wider
range of topics your teen feels comfortable telling you about.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
You're also modeling a great path for them to figure
out their own behavior, right. I mean, even as an adult,
sometimes when I do stuff and I screw stuff up
or I you know, lie or whatever, it's hard for
me to uncover the reasons behind that. I have to
get curious with myself. So if you're kind of modeling
curiosity with them, it also seems like a great strategy
to get them to realize, like, oh, this is the
same thing I can use when I screw up or
(34:44):
what I fail, or when I'm like not pleased with
my own behavior.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
It's exactly right. I mean, a parent's words becomes a
child's self talk. That's also the long term greedy nature
of good side. So there's going to be a time
when our teen is in their twenties and thirties and
they're going to do something that they're not proud of, right,
whatever it is. They lied to their spouse, or they
told their friends they couldn't go to dinner because they're sick,
(35:09):
but then their friends saw on Instagram they're actually just
with other friends, right, And you want your kid to
be able to pause and to say, I wonder why
I did that. If your kid can do that, which
by the way, comes from your curiosity in the face
of their struggle, they are going to be a much
more successful, resilient th though.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So when you feel that impulse to get all judgmental,
whether it's about your child or yourself, take a pause
and get curious. Not only is that eagerness to learn
more pleasant than feeling judgy, it also has the added
bonus of fostering personal growth. But can parents do more
than just get curious when a child is acting out?
Could we turn these unpleasant moments into positive experiences? What
(35:50):
if we could make these times fun even joyful. After
the break, doctor Becky will share a tool that she
keeps in her back pocket to make tough parenting moments
more playful. The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment.
Clinical psychologist doctor Becky Kennedy believes that the traditional reward
(36:14):
punishment model of parenting is not just ineffective, it can
also cause parents to miss out on important opportunities to
connect with their kids. Like adults, children learn best not
when they're feeling threatened or bribed, but when they feel
safe and supported and when they're having fun. In fact,
doctor Becky thinks we need to bring way more humor
and goofiness into parenting than most caregivers usually think.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Playfulness is so important and I just want to name here.
It's one of the hardest parts.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
For parents because parenting doesn't often feel playful. It just
feels like a grind one hundred percent all the time.
And so getting back to your hey, it's just funzie
time mode can just be really tough.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I think there's that, and I would say I don't
think most parents experienced a lot of playfulness from their parents,
true totally. People will say, why is it so hard
for me to do pretend play when my kid is young,
or just joke around with my teen when they're older,
and they my parents hold a lot of guilt, like
is something wrong with me? If play is hard for you,
(37:13):
and if play feels awkward, all that's a sign of
is play was likely not modeled to you by the
adults in your life. And so any effort you make
to be a little more playful, first all it will
be awkward. Anything new feels awkward. But I really want
anyone here just to tell themselves that's like a cycle
breaking act. I'm pretty brave and amazing to do something
with my kids that no one did with me. And
(37:35):
so why is playfulness important? I'll give a couple examples.
My kid's towel. Their towels are just always on the floor,
and like, I don't know why it drives me not
It's like I don't it's probably something inherited from my childhood,
Like of all the things, okay, the towels on the floor.
It's not like fine that you don't respect me, like
you know, but it does bother me. And for so
many years I feel like I've said, hey, have you
(37:57):
noticed the towel on the floor a couple of weeks ago.
This is what I said, because my kids always joked
that I'm so old and I'm over the hill. That's
what they like to say to me, you know, And
I'll say, this is so weird. I feel like, I
see your towel on the floor, but like my eyes
at my forties, like they're kind of going and like
I don't know. My kids like, yeah, mom, I think
you're over the hill, you know, and I don't think
(38:18):
there's a towel. Then I'm like really, because I'm gonna
like walk over there slowly. I'm gonna get on my
knees and just feel. And then while I do that,
guess what my kid does? They go get their towel.
And then I go and I touch the floor, and
I'm like, oh my goodness, that is so weird.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
My eyes are so bad. I meet by bifocals.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
How terrible. Yeah, I just think about how that could
go pick up your towel. I'm not picking up I'm
doing homework. If you don't pick up your towel, now,
no dessert. And then I'm like, why did I say that?
I don't want to withhold dessert, and then I'm like, Okay,
I guess you can have fruit and whip cream. That's
not really dessert. I'm making stuff up. I'm getting in
a fight. So what's the hardest part here? I actually
think a lot of the moments to choose joy and
(38:58):
to choose play, the alternative is in calm. Often the
alternative is control and anger. The moments when you want
to lead with control and anger are actual the best
moments to try to infuse some play. Another example of this,
and this is something I've done with younger kids for
a while, but I've adapted to an old or kid version.
Who is a kid who likes to clean up? Okay, look,
(39:19):
no one's raising their hand. Cool, nobody likes to clean up.
So what do you do when you have to get
your kid to clean up? Often you lead with anger
and control. If you don't clean up your toys, they're
all going to be in the garbage tomorrow. My kid's like, well,
I've heard that empty threat before. I have something I
called to close your eyesact. That's how it goes. I'm
just going to close dance and all I'm saying is
if when I open my eyes, all the red blocks
(39:39):
are in the bin and you can see I'm talking
slowly because guess what my kid is doing. They're doing it.
I might I might fall on the ground. I might
do when I was gonna say you're I might do
a butt dance and I might slap my butt. I
just think about like a boss at work being like,
oh my goodness, if your project is done, I might
fall to the ground and do a butt dance. I
(39:59):
feel like I'm like, I'm gonna finish my project. I
want to see that.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
You know, if all you need to do to get
the house clean is the butt dance, like bring it,
you know.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, here's what I think. I also want to empower
parents with people will say that won't work with my
sixteen year old. Whenever you say that won't work, it's
really limiting. Why does the close your eyes hack work? Okay?
Number one, you lead with trust and not control. If
you think about saying to a kid, clean up and
then you just stare at them again, imagine trying to
(40:29):
do a report with your boss watching you at the computer.
You'd freeze. If your boss at work says I trust
you to do this and walks away, You're gonna do
it and then add something silly and ridiculous. Trust silly ridiculous.
So for your sixteen year old, you could say, look,
one of your chores is to clear the table, or
you know, to make your bed. I'm gonna go check
(40:51):
on your sibling. If when I get back here that
that is made, I don't even know what I might do,
And I might just like delt into a ridiculous song
that like, all you guys are singing and you're gonna
tell me, Mom, you're so annoying. This is so cringe.
I just might do this and my sixteen year old
will roll their eyes, but they'll probably have a smile
on their face and I walk out. They feel more
connected to me, there's a little more joy, and I
(41:13):
bet the likelihood of that bed being made just skyrocketed.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I love this because you're able to get stuff done
without the negative emotion, right, And I feel like, if
only we can make parenting a little bit more goofy,
a little bit more joyful and fun, a little bit
more connected, parents would just feel so much better all
the time.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
I think that's right, and I think pushback I get
is when I said, so everything has to be a
game can't my kids just listen? But I think we
underestimate how much as adults we kind of cooperate with
other people for the same reasons, like for fun. At
the end of the day, cooperation and listening just means
I'm doing something you want me to do that I
don't want to do. Because anytime you say to a
(41:51):
sixteen year old, hey, you can be on your phone
for two hours, I don't know anyone who's like, I'm
not dealing it. When we're talking about cooperation, we really
mean I want my kid to do something and they
don't want to do it. So as an adult, if
you think I don't want to do something but someone
else wants me to do it, why would I listen
to them? Like if I'm having lunch with you, Louri
and one of my friends walks by and it's like,
(42:12):
can you guys both come help me pack up my
apartment and I'm like no, and they're like, well, if
you don't do it, I'm never going to be friends
into it. I'm like, yeah, not doing it. If they
say I have, it's like amazing, I don't know music
to play and I'm going to get some like ice
cream deliver or what do you think I feel like
you and I might be like, okay, yeah, lay in
levity is always a motivator to do things you don't
(42:34):
want to do. And so it's not do I have
to play games? Why can't my kid just listen? It's
actually kids operate based on the same principles adults operate
based on. I think this final insight is so important.
Kids are motivated by the same principles that adults are.
They prefer connection and validation to anger and judgment, and
they respond way more favorably to humor and fun than
(42:56):
they do to being forced. I'm so thrilled that doctor
Becky was able to share all her insights with us today.
Her good inside approach is a reminder that if we
respond to our kids defiance as a signal of unmet
needs or lagging skills, we can some and the curiosity
needed to discover what's really going on and react a
bit more happily. But let's do a quick recap of
(43:16):
the tips doctor Becky shared today. First, we need to
remember that the job description of being a parent involves
two separate but important roles. We need to set boundaries,
but we also need to validate. The boundary part keeps
children safe and grounded, while a validation part helps us
build trust and connection. But validation doesn't mean giving in
saying I.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Get how hard this is while holding the line, We'll
teach your child that their emotions are real and manageable
without rewarding that not so great behavior. Second, parents do
not need to fix a child's feelings, They just need
to make space for them, So challenge that happiness police mentality.
Your goal is not to make your kids happy all
the time, but to teach them that they can feel
safe sitting with this comfort, a lesson that's super important
(44:00):
for handling real life adversity. Later on Tip number three
one end out shoot for long term greedy parenting, Try
to avoid going for the kinds of short term comforts
that prevent resilience in the future. But give yourself some
grace while doing this, because parenting for the future is
not easy, which gets to tip number four multiplicity. Remember
that you need to hold two truths at once. I
(44:23):
love my kid deeply, and I'm okay letting them face
a tough moment. Tip number five summon curiosity. Curiosity leads
to understanding and change, but judgment usually keeps us and
our kids stuck. Tip number six is to choose playfulness
over control. Bringing the fun back to tough situations can
lead to connection and motivation without all the power struggles.
(44:45):
So the next time you're tempted to lay down the law,
maybe try a butt dance instead. Because play doesn't just
make parenting easier, it actually makes it more joyful too.
And today's final tip number seven, always give yourself and
your child the benefit of the doubt. As doctor Becky
often says, even when we're not at our best on
the outside, we're still good inside. Next week on the
(45:07):
Happiness Lab, we'll continue our deep dive into strategies for
happier parenting. We'll be asking what can we do to
better motivate our kids. We'll learn about the power of
developing what's called a mentor mindset. We'll see that there
are ways to hold our kids to high standards while
validating their agency and independence. We'll also hear how these
same strategies for collaborative troubleshooting can help you on the
(45:30):
job and in your relationships too. That's all next time
in our special season on Happier Parenting. On the Happiness
lab with me, Doctor Laurie Santos
Pushkin. When it comes to raising kids, most of us
are familiar with the traditional reward and punishment podel. Your
toddler throws a tantrum, time out, your teenager breaks curfew,
They're grounded. But is this really the best way to
raise happy, healthy adults. On today's episode of our special
(00:37):
series on Happier Parenting, le'll meet an expert who's convinced
we can do better.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I'm doctor Becky Kennedy. I'm a clinical psychologist, i am
a mom of three, and i am the founder of
Good Inside.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Good Inside is a company that offers simple, actionable strategies
for parents struggling with their kids challenging behavior. It's also
the title of doctor Becky's best selling book and the
name of her popular parenting podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Doctor Becky's work.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Is rooted in the belief that every child is quote
good inside, even when they're acting out. And while our
instinct might be to lecture, yell, or take away privileges
when our child acts out, doctor Becky thinks we need
to be a little bit grateful in those moments because
she sees meltdowns and rule breaking as signals important clues
that point to an underlying problem, which needs to be understood,
(01:25):
not punished. Now does that mean that doctor Becky wants
us to condone bad behavior. No, but she does believe
there's a better way to respond.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
When a kid hits, when they're whining, when they never listen.
No part of me is like, oh, that's amazing, that's
your kid's natural expression of their feelings. We should celebrate.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
No.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I always say the right answer is often between two extremes.
And if one extreme is you see behavior that's bad,
and then what we do is we kind of unconsciously
assume our child is bad. That is why we send
them away. That would bring a punishment based approach. I'm
not such a fan. What I think is really powerful
(02:07):
is if we see our kid's bad behavior as a
sign of what they need. And again, that doesn't mean
behavior is okay. But if I always drop my phone
and it shattered, that might be a sign I need
a phone protector. Case. That doesn't mean it's okay that
I drop my phone. It actually means I have a
(02:30):
way of fixing the problem. So if you see your
kids hitting a sibling, for example, as a sign of
what they might need, you're gonna activate curiosity. You're gonna
end up asking yourself different questions. Instead of saying, what
is wrong with my kid, we'd say to ourselves instead,
I wonder what was going on for my kid right
before they hit? I wonder what skill my kid would
(02:54):
need to manage the frustration of sharing a toy with
their sibling, but not have that frustration come out as
a hit. Makes me think about the difference in a
basketball code saying why is my player missing all their layups? Why?
You know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna send them
to their.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I'm gonna make them do laps around the court over
and over again till they figure out yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Versus a coach that says, wait a second, what is
getting in my player's way of making a layup? What
skill would they need? And then when can we practice?
Ooh tomorrow, I'm going to get them in the gym
and I'm gonna really look at their form, and I'm saying, oh,
I figured it out. Okay, I'm going to teach them
something new, and then I'm going to practice something new.
And I don't think any of us would say, oh
my goodness, Becky, what a permissive basketball coach. I mean
(03:36):
that coach is basically saying it's okay to misshots. It's
so crazy. No, we would say, what a great coach.
They're using quote bad behavior as a sign of what
might be going on. Then they can understand what's going on.
Then they can build a new skill and practice and boom,
the behavior actually improves. So that's what the good side
(03:57):
approach is all about. But not for basketball, but for kids' behavior.
I love this approach for two reasons.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
What is it really touches on something that we talk
about a lot, which is this idea of growth mindset? Right,
Your kid is not fixed, their behavior is not fixed.
The goal is skills learning. But it's also kind of
putting the parent's role into kind of like the light.
In some ways, you are kind of coaching your kids,
hopefully towards skills, building towards better emotional regulation, towards better
behavior over time. And I know this is something that
(04:25):
you've talked about a lot, right, this idea that parents
need to know what their role is. From your perspective,
what's the parent's role and how should they be thinking
about it?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I love you for so many reasons, but I love
you for asking that question. No, this whole thing about
what is a parent's role? What is a parent's job.
It came from years in private practice where parents would
come to me about a variety of things, the tantrums,
the rudeness, the clinging, even though they know everyone at
the birthday party, whatever it is. And I'd always say
to a parent, what is your job in that tricky situation?
(04:56):
And they'd always say the same thing, I don't know,
just tell me what to do. That's why I'm big
on metaphors like imagine going to an office on the
first day of your job and your boss saying, do
your job well, and then you look and you realize
I don't have a job description. And by the way,
I don't know what that person next to me does
and where their job starts and ends and my job
(05:17):
starts and ends. I feel like in that position, that
person would say, how could I do my job well
if I don't know what my job is. Knowing what
your job is with complete clarity is a precondition to
doing any job well. And so when it comes to parenting,
we have to change our first question to what is
my job? And I'll give you a definition that actually
(05:39):
works for any situation. In my mind, a parent always
has two jobs. One is setting boundaries and the second
is connecting to your kid's lived experience, which is another
way of saying validating their feelings. And let me explain both.
Because these jobs work in tandem, Let's start with boundaries.
(06:01):
Boundaries are key decisions we make, their limits we set,
and boundaries really ensure that we keep our kids safe.
The reason we set a boundary around TV time is
because we don't think it's great or safe for a
kid to watch TV three hours after their bedtime. The
reason I hold my kid when they're crossing the street,
(06:23):
when they're flailing and saying let me go, isn't because
I want to have control over my kid. It's because
I want to keep them safe and they're not exactly
in the right mind streets to be crossing the street.
Those are boundaries. Now, to be clear, kids have one
reaction to boundaries. Not happy.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
To be fair, it's not kids right like when people
set boundaries to me, I'm not like super thrilled about
that either.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
One hundred percent. A boundary is really a way of
saying to someone else, you want something, and I'm saying no.
Nobody likes having their desires thwarted, nobody does well. So
when you set a boundary, and this is so important
because we have some unconscious belief in me too that
like I'm going to set some really good boundary for
(07:07):
my kid, my kid's going to be like that is
amazing parenting mom. Thank you, I do need to go
to bed. Thank you for turning on the TV. Never,
no child in my house or any child I know
who's normal, has ever said that when you set a boundary,
which is part one of your job, your kid actually
does their job. They feel their feelings. And I know
that's an inconvenient truth, but the reason that's our kid's
(07:28):
job is kids can't develop skills to manage feelings they
don't allow themselves to have. And so if you want
your kid to be an adult who can manage frustration
and anger and not be a thirty year old who
acts like a two year old, then you want your
kid to feel all the feelings when they're two and
not three. I say TV time's over, I turn it off.
My kid does not say thank you. They say why
(07:49):
and all my friends get more screen time and you're
the worst, YadA YadA yadda, And now it's actually amazing.
I can do part two of my job. I validate
the feelings they have, which would sound like this, Oh,
you really wish you could watch TV, or oh, it's
the worst when you're watching a show and you can't
finish it because TV time is up, or oh I
(08:09):
really eat when my TV time is over too. I
get it. What I'm doing, and this is really important
is I'm seeing my kid's feelings as real. I don't
have to agree with them. I don't have to think
the extent or intensity of the feeling is right or wrong.
It just is. I'm seeing it as real. And there's
a wash rinse for pea. I set a boundary. I
(08:31):
think this is right. My kid gets upset, I validate
the feeling. And then this is important because parents say,
oh so, then just because my kid's upset, they get
to watch another show.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
No.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Validating feelings goes hand in hand with holding your boundaries.
So another example, hay sweety, it's time to leave the park.
My kid is gonna say no, I want to stay
in the park. I might say something of them like, look,
if it's too hard to walk to the car, I
will pick you up and carry you because it's really
time to go. Okay, maybe your kid listens, then maybe
they don't. If they don't pick them up, what is
(09:03):
a kid gonna do. They're gonna kick and scream. And
as I carry my kid to the car, I'm going
to the other part of my job. Oh it stinks
to leave before you want. You probably wish you were
an adult and can make all your own decisions. I
get that leaving the park is so hard, but I
am not bringing them back to the park. I am
saying that while I'm carrying them in a sturdy way
(09:24):
to the car. And that job boundaries validation. That's always
an orienting principle. I come back to.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
There's something else you said about the boundaries that I
think is really important, because I think sometimes when parents
said a boundary, they think it's like they're telling their
kid what to do, like stop with the TV. But
you've algae that a boundary works a little bit differently.
It has that part, but it's actually something else. What
is the something else?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
All the time I hear from parents, and honestly I
hear from nonparents, just adults. My mother in law does
not respect my boundaries. My kid does not listen to
my boundaries. Let me share my definition of boundaries and
then we can hear together why those things don't really
make sense. First, a boundary is something I tell someone
I will do and it requires the other person to
(10:08):
do nothing. So over and over I hear frustration from
parents my kids don't respect my boundaries. And I'll say,
tell me about a boundary you set and they say, oh, no,
jumping on the couch. My kid is jumping on the couch.
And I look at them and I say, stop jumping
on the couch. We don't do that. And then we
look at that kind of definition. Did you tell your
kids something you will do? And they say no? Does
(10:30):
the success of your boundary require your kid to do nothing? No?
And this is like an aha moment where they're like,
am I not setting a boundary? But there's no, You're not.
You're making a request and we have to make requests
all the time. But requests are boundaries. This is a boundary.
And this is why I always say good inside parenting.
It's sturdy. It's not gentle. And I don't mind the
(10:51):
word gentle. Everyone's like, is it gentle? I just think
the words we use have a power to evoke different
parts of us. I know, for me, I'm not really
accessing being gentle. I'm not accessing being harsh. I'm doing
the thing in the middle. I'm being sturdy. Here's a boundary. Hey, sweetie,
I need to get off the cat. They look at
me and keep jumping because I have one of those
(11:11):
kids too. This is a boundary. I'm gonna walk over
to you, and if by the time I get there
it's still too hard to get off the couch, I
will put my arms around you. I will place you
on the ground and I'll show you a safer place
to jump that's not right in front of our class table. Okay,
to be clear, when I go to pick up my kid,
would you better bet I'm gonna do again. My kid's
(11:33):
gonna say, give me one more chance, two more jumps.
I don't want to get off. You're so mean. Does
it matter? My boundary is what I do. It's an
embodiment of my authority. My kid's gonna probably try to
make a dodge back to the couch. What they're saying is,
am I more powerful than you are? You gonna let
me override the cockpit and be in charge. And they
(11:53):
need to test that because actually they need to know
that we are the sturdy pilot who will not let
them pilot complain, especially not when they're in that state.
And then I would block my kid. And then that
other part, Oh, it's no fun to jump on the floor.
You wish you could jump on the couch. Oh, I
get that. That is absolutely not an option. Ugh, And
I guess those are your choices. No jumping anywhere or
(12:16):
jump somewhere less fun. That's so tricky. I have a
feeling you're going to figure it out. That to me
is the essence of boundary setting, and that, to me
is the essence of real sturdiness. And so when parents
say you're not punishing your kids, you're just raising snowflakes,
I'm like, go watch me in action. You are sorely,
sorely mistaken.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
But this gets to I think another misconception parents have
about the kind of second part, the sort of validating
the emotion's part, because I think sometimes parents think that
that requires them to be the kind of so called
happiness police, that something about managing kids' safety requires managing
emotional safety. But you've sort of pushed back against the
happiest police idea. Why is it that we have to
(12:56):
kind of allow our.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Kids to go through these moments of discomfort? Oh? Yes,
you know. These are one of these moments where I'll
be out with friends, totally social dinner and someone will
make some offhand common like you don't you just want
your kids to be happy? It's all we want, right,
And I feel like my husband will look at me like, Becky, please,
just like he knows where's coming next, Just not and
(13:18):
move on. But I can't because I'll be like, no,
that's not what I want, And it's so interesting. How again,
then people go to the other extreme. People will say
to me, you want your kids to be unhappy? WHOA Like? No,
I'm not like wishing unhappiness on the humans I love
the most. But the idea of wanting our kids to
be happy, I think is a well intentioned but widely
(13:38):
misguided wish that actually has the complete opposite impact on kids.
They're developing circuitry in their body for what range of
emotions am I set up to cope with? How capable
am I of dealing with uncomfortable experiences? I'm talking about
(13:59):
things like, mom, I'm the only one in my class
who can't read and as a parent, let me to
say it's painful when your kid says that, because we
love our kids so much, right, I think what we're
often tempted to say is something like that can't be true,
or everybody reads at their own pace, or okay, but
you are the only kid who can do multiplication. So
(14:21):
what we have the urge to do is we see
our kid disappointed, sad, frustrated, mad, jealous, some version of uncomfortable,
and to some degree we think our job in the
moment is to pluck them out of that feeling and
bring them to a happy feeling. Another metaphor I like
(14:41):
to think of is like we find them on a bench,
and this is the bench if I can't read books
yet I'm noticing people around me can do things I can't, which,
by the way, will happen for the rest of your life.
Or people have things I don't have, or I just
feel less than. And when we see our kid on
that bench, we see a sunnier bench and we're like,
just like, come with me there, it's so sunny there.
(15:03):
Why is this not ideal? Because resilience in adulthood is
actually based on our ability to kind of proverbially like
sit on all the benches we come across in life.
I know my kid when they're older, at some point,
they're going to I don't know, be in a class
in college where they're intimidated by people. They're going to
get a bad grade. They're not going to be invited
to someone's birthday party. They're going to get fired for
(15:24):
a job. They're going to think they're going to get
a job and not get it. They're not going to
get a promotion. They're going to be embarrassed in public.
All of the things that happen in childhood won't happen
in the exact form in adulthood, but they will happen
with the same set of feelings in adulthood. And if
when my kid is an adult, what they've learned is
when I feel jealous, sad, nervous, mad, less than, I
(15:49):
look around for the happy, where is the happy? All
that sets my kid up for is anxiety and fragility.
So what's the alternative? And this is going to sound
so counterintuitive, but I'll explain it. Let me go back
to that example. My kids on this bench are feeling
less than, which sounds like I'm the only one who
can't read now again, we don't have to go together extremes.
(16:10):
I say, it's so true, you're so stupid. Duh, No,
do not recommend. Okay, but if you think about your
kid on that bench, what would it mean to just
sit on the bench with them in some ways to
say to your kid, you're on this bench and you're uncomfortable.
I'm not scared of this bench. I don't need to
pluck you off the bench. The only reason I would
need to do this if this bench was like going
to eat you alive. It's just a bench, by the way,
(16:32):
you'll sit here a million times. So let me just
PLoP down next to you. And then what you're doing
is the most profound thing we can do as parents,
is you're making sure your kid is no longer alone.
Feelings don't overwhelm kids. Feeling alone in feelings overwhelm kids.
And it's actually the experience of repeated aloneness in a
(16:52):
feeling that leads to adult anxiety because you get encoded
in the overwhelm of being alone. So I just want
to give you a few lines because I wanted to
make things concrete. First thing you can say to your
kid when they say anything they're upset about I'm so
glad you're talking to me about this.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Not just parenting advice, is just out of general relationship advice.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I was talking about this on a podcast a little
while ago, and my husband, who doesn't usually listen, was like,
you know, those three lines just saying when I talk
to you about stuff that's hard at work, like I
would like those lines. And so first line is just
I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. The
second line is saying to a kid, I believe you,
and then the third line is just tell me more,
(17:32):
because what you're really doing is you're saying to your
kid in this powerful way, I am not afraid of
your feelings. They will not swallow anyone. And because I
can tolerate this feeling in you, you will be able
to tolerate this feeling in you now. Ironically, Laurie, when
it comes to happiness, regulating difficult emotions is a prerequisite.
(17:56):
So really, if we quote want our kid to be happy,
what we should really focus on is not fixing their unhappiness,
but really helping them sit with it and cope with it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Leting your kids work through their own disappointment is hard
it's painful to watch someone you love struggle, especially when
your impulse is to step in and fix everything. But
just like adults, children need to learn how to tolerate
discomfort in order to feel more at ease with themselves.
Doctor Becky believes that raising resilient kids involves holding both
of these truths at the same time. That we need
(18:30):
to let our kids experience discomfort even though it sucks.
After the break, we'll explore this idea of multiplicity and
dive deeper into how optimizing for long term happiness often
means learning to sit with short term distress. For both
children and adults. That happiness lab will be right back.
(18:55):
From an evolutionary perspective, our most important goal in life
is to make sure our kids survive so they can
get their genes into the next generation. It therefore makes
sense that parents have a built in motivation to do
everything in their power to protect their children. If your
kid wanders near a saber tooth tiger, it's your evolutionary
duty to step in and keep them safe. But in
modern society, that instinct to protect at all costs often
(19:18):
leads to overparenting. The tendency to take over for your
kid in nearly every tricky situation. Study after study shows
that overparenting can inadvertently hurt the people we love. Most
research shows that overparenting can inhibit a child's capacity for autonomy,
problem solving, and even emotional resilience. So, when your son
or daughter finds themselves in a sticky situation, when should
(19:41):
you let them face the consequences and figure things out alone?
And when should you offer a helping hand. Clinical psychologist
doctor Becky Kennedy says that parents need to choose their
moments of intervention very carefully.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
There are times you should swoop in. If your toddler
is about to run across the street of New York City,
swoop in.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
If they're sleeping in on the day of the sat
you know, maybe give them a little nudge.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Swoop in, right, swoop in. But swooping in and it
has a more surprising impact on kids than we think,
especially as they get older, because kids know someone swoops
in because something's in emergency, or because someone doesn't see
me as capable. And where are kids mirrors?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
To me?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
This is one of the most powerful things to think
about as a parent. If I'm my kid's mirror, then
I reflect to them the version of who they are.
And so if I'm often reflecting my kid's lack of capability,
which I don't think i'm doing, but I might unintentionally
be doing by fixing so many things, it can't be
surprised that as my kid gets older, I keep saying
(20:48):
to friends, why can they figure things out? Why can't
they even remember their water bottle? Shouldn't they be able
to do this at age sixteen? Age doesn't bring skills.
This is what I always tell parents. People say, at
what age will my kids stop having these meltdowns? I
feel like it's like someone saying, at what age will
my kid be able to swim? And I say, well,
are they learning how to swim? No, I'd be like,
(21:10):
I'm not blaming you, but like at a certain age,
no one's like gifted swimming. No one is gifted competence
and capability and confidence and regulation. It's not years, it's
what you do in the years. And so reflecting capability
is a really big part of the good inside approach.
(21:31):
It's deeply uncomfortable because reflecting capability of your kid has
to go hand in hand in recognizing potential discomfort in
your kid. And just letting it. That's the way I
would say, let it right. And again, am I gonna
let my kid miss their sat? No, I'm a reasonable human.
Am I gonna let my kid forget their water bottle? When,
(21:54):
by the way, we've been talking about remembering your own
water bottle. Yes, here's actually a really important difference. Too
often in those situations we do it from a place
of frustration and punishment. So I'll say I'm not bringing
you your water bottle. You can deal with that. Nobody
finds that inspirational. This is very different, Swede. I'm not
going to bring you your water bottle. You're a strong kid,
(22:16):
You'll figure it out. And when you get home, let's
figure out it. Just a better system to remember it.
All the different things that happened that are hard. I
really do say to myself, this is amazing. This is
amazing learning that one of my kids waited so long
and has to stay up late to work hard on
a paper that they're now not going to be able
to review with their teacher before, even though their teacher
said they'll do that and they probably won't receive a
great pan. What amazing warning. I love this.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
This is a gift, right, Like you know, how much
are they going to get better over time? Like they're
never going to put things off again because look at
the terrible consequences they got, which is so important. But
the problem as a parent, though, is that to hold
I'm doing this wonderful thing I'm giving my kid learning
it's a gift. You have to hold that at the
same time as but I love my kid, I'm supposed
to be a good parent. I'm allowing discomfort in a
(23:00):
way that I could swoop in and fix and I've
committed to that. And that gets to something else that
I know you talk about a lot, this idea of
needing to hold psychologically, this multiplicity as you've called it,
that like you can be a really good parent and
you can also let your kid forget their water bottle.
You can be a really good parent and you could
not remind them about the homework, and that might cause
them to get a bad grade or cause them to
(23:21):
kind of have a really tough night when they're pulling
it all nighter. Talk to me about this multiplicity. How
do we hold both of these things at once? And
why is it so important to get good at doing this?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So important? And again, this is where it skills for life.
So holding multiplicity is important with your kids, so important
with yourself at work in everything. A couple things I
want to say about that. Number one, I just want
to be on a bashed saying I'm very long term
greedy in my parenting approach. Like if I had to
choose between short term benefit and long term benefit, by
(23:53):
the way, I think we often can get both, but
I would choose long term. So when you do, let
your kid experience life, by the way, assuming again, you
can't say to your kid and expect it to be effective, See,
you stayed up late and you got a bad grade. Again,
it's not that it's like, huh, I wonder what happened?
What do you to do differently next time? Oh, you'd
have to start sooner. I wonder if you have a
(24:15):
paper coming up that you would think, Oh, you do what?
Oh it's due to wednesdays from now. I wonder when
you'd have to start? Oh, be the Wednesday before. Oh
my goodness, that's such a good idea. I wonder how
you'll remembered do that? How would I? Oh, what, you're
gonna put it in your calendar? Right? Leaving my kid
to the well. That is really important. But I think
the operating principle around kind of multiplicity that lets me
(24:39):
do that is Okay. I see my kid's distress here,
but I'm not optimizing for their short term happiness. I
am optimizing for their long term resilience. Those are very
different things. I mean, this morning, I hadn't gone to
the gym in weeks, and I was like, Today's day.
I knew today was the day, just for twenty minutes.
(24:59):
I just wanted to get that post of energy in
the morning. If I was optimizing for my short term happiness,
you better bet I'm staying in bet you would be
a bed. And so for being long term greed having
that two things are true. My kid is having a
hard time today and I can support them and use
this moment to build resilience for the future. We need
support for us as parents to be able to do that.
(25:21):
Scripts a group of parents are saying, yeah, I'm doing
that too. We don't have a culture of supporting parents.
We do when you're pregnant. It's actually so interesting to me.
When you're pregnant, people buy books, they take CPR courses,
they invest a lot of money and time, and we're
told in a societal way, that's what we should do
(25:42):
as soon as you have a kid. We've really internalized
this idea of maternal instinct. People say, is, madam, it's
something I should be able to figure out on my own.
I shouldn't need help because of this lack of what
we are living with, like all of these fires. It's
like whack a mole. And so that's a big picture
of my mission is just to change that idea is
(26:03):
to say, hey, my guess is, of all of your values,
parenting in your kid's mental health probably towards the top
of your list. My guess is if you look at
your even expenses and the way you spend your energy,
actually investing in the support a parent we need is
probably low on the list. It's so out of alignment.
Once we have that, it's a lot easier without that.
(26:23):
When we're alone, you just spiral.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
And this is why I love your work so much,
because you're kind of helping parents get these tools, and
sometimes using those tools themselves can be really good for
parents well being. I mean, one of my favorite tools
that I know is one of your go tos is
the idea of getting curious, especially when you're dealing with
a bad behavior or a failure or a screw up.
Why is curiosity such a superpower when you're dealing with failure.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I think curiosity is the opposite of like judgment, and
I think so often when we struggle as adults, we
just judge ourselves right away. I think that's because when
we had hard moments when we were kids, when we
had bad behavior, guess what most of us were probably
met with judgement. Go to your room. Why would you
(27:09):
do that? You're so selfish, you're crying. I'll give you
something to cry about. And so we've wired in our
body struggle next to harsh judgment. And even though the
harsh judgment part was initially someone else's voice, we've internalized
it so much. This is so sad to me. It's
become our own voice. And then we're hard on ourselves
when we're triggered, and we're reactive to our kids. But
(27:32):
the truth is we react to them based on our
own circuitry. We can't do something with our kids that
we're not working on with ourselves. If I have wired
my struggles next to judgment, then it makes sense. I'm
going to say to my kid, what's wrong with you?
You're so dramatic, you always ruin things, even though later
at night I'm thinking, why did I say that? I
promise myself I wouldn't say that. What is the answer
(27:53):
to this? Change starts by changing your interaction with yourself,
which is why I care so deeply about all the
reparenting work we do. That is the most powerful thing
to be able to be the parent you want to be,
and curiosity is the key. So let's say, as an adult,
I just yelled at my kid. I think judgment activates
so quickly. I'm such a monster. I messed up my
(28:15):
kid forever. If anyone ever saw me, they wouldn't even
believe the type my mother I am. I've said this
to myself. I'm like doctor Becky, like I'm yelling at
my kid? What is wrong with me? But I think
I wonder what was going on for me at that moment,
what led me to yell at my kid when they
complained about dinner? And this is powerful what actually happened
earlier in my day or a week that probably put
(28:38):
me in the up to the brim place I was in.
So then complaining about dinner is just a straw that
broke the camel's back, and I yelled, this is curiosity.
And I think one of the things again that we
have to reparent ourselves about, is we mistakenly think being
curious about bad behavior means you're condoning bad behavior. But again,
(29:00):
like I always think about other areas, like if I'm
curious about why my star football quarterback keeps throwing interceptions,
why are they doing that? Is it they're positioning, is
it they're timing. If a coach was saying that, I
just can't imagine another coach would be like, oh, so
you're condoning all these interceptions. It's just like, actually, so weird.
Curiosity is the key to change. Judgment is actually the
(29:24):
key to being stuck and never changing, just ineffective. So curiosity,
I wonder why I did that to me? Another phrase
that such beautiful, compassionate curiosity is I'm a good person.
I was having a hard time. I wonder what came
up for me at that moment, because usually that's what happens,
like something comes up. I have a fear about my kid.
(29:46):
I worry people think I'm a bad parent. I worry
my kid's a sociopath. Well, as long as I'm thinking
about my four year old as a sociopath, I guess
it makes sense that I'm yelling at that. Okay, how
else would I have to interpret their behavior to have
a different thought and therefore probably be more able to
stay calm. See now, curiosity allows me to make positive change.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
And these are all cases where you're using that curiosity
yourself as a parent, or maybe you did a behavior
that you know wasn't so awesome. You've argued that we
can use the same kind of technique when we're dealing
with a kid's bad behavior. Let's say you know, you
find out your teenager lied to you they went to
some party that they weren't supposed to go. To walk
me through how you would use curiosity in that way,
and maybe your our boundary setting and our kind of
(30:27):
validating feelings job as well.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
So let's say you have a teenager who lied to you.
Lying to me is one of the best things to
start with, because lying there's an outlying that is so
triggering to us as parents, and we interpret it so
personally my teenager doesn't respect me, or we kind of
like center ourselves. Whenever I work with parents from the
things I say is okay, Let's say you have someone
(30:50):
in your life you love, why would you lie to them?
So interesting, Moore, I have never had anyone say I
would never.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
We know that this is a behavior that comes up occasionally, right, right,
I mean, why would you lie to someone that you
love and respect?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Why do you think you would?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
You were going through something terrible, you were really scared,
something else was off that was like making this either
so scary or so overwhelming that you had no choice.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
You know, I'll add to it for me, and I
think I would lie because I was scared of someone's reaction.
I think I would also lie because on some level
I was so ashamed or embarrassed about something I did
that if I had to like share the truth, it's
almost like I'd have to like relive it again, like
I'd have to face it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, the lies are off in the doubling down on
just being avoidant of what we've done and the shame
of what we've done.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Right. People think kids who lie, like, again, you're so sociopathic. Actually,
there's something so vulnerable in that moment. They're like, I
actually feel so guilty that it's so consuming me that
I have to almost pretend this thing didn't happen to
survive the moment. Okay, so you have this kid who
lies right, and again, let's say we can maintain calm
and not be triggered and not make it about us.
(31:56):
How could you use curiosity? And I'm gonna model this
exactly because it's gonna create controversy because it's different, and
parents are gonna say, isn't that just letting them get
away with it? We're so used to this adversarial control mindset.
So let's say my kids like, no, I didn't take
money from your durer. Meanwhile, I have some like ness
cam like seeing my son like take it so obvious.
(32:17):
Leading with curiosity would sound like this, this is actually
important in the moment, I probably wouldn't even ask. I
would actually say is a life lesson? Never ask someone
a question you know the answer to. All you're doing
is setting yourself up to get more frustrated with your
kid and say, look, I know you took that money
from the drawer, and like, I don't even want to
get into I just know it. I saw it on
the video. I'm not going to lead with the punishment.
(32:38):
I'm not going to lead with a lecture. There must
have been something about going out to dinner with your
friends that felt so important that you also feel like
I really didn't understand that you can be honest with
me about and that's not my way of saying, it's okay,
but we can deal with the okay not okay part later,
And I'm pretty sure you know it's not okay to
steal her lie. What's actually really more important to me
is our relationship and figuring out what actually I could
(33:01):
do to make it easier to tell me the truth.
I know parents listening are like, w tf.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
You are going to make me raise a child who
will lie to me forever. I would bet one hundred
dollars your child will lie to you less because your
kid will tell you the truth when they believe they
can maintain.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
A connection with you when they tell you the truth.
Kids are oriented by attachment from toddlers through teens, all
of us are. They are primed to notice what will
I tell my parent that will make them distance themselves
from me? And what can I tell my parent that
can still be held in love and safety and in
a way when your kid lies to you. Ironically, they're
(33:44):
doing that to temporarily preserve attachment because on some level
that thinking, as long as I don't tell my parent
the truth, we're still connected. As soon as I tell
my parent the truth, we're broken. And so anything we
do to further that pattern threat and if you do
that again next time, you're grounded. All we're doing, ironically,
is making a kid even more predispositioned to lie because
(34:06):
they can't beat the evolutionary system that just wants to
be connected to you. When you lead instead with curiosity,
you actually strengthen your relationship and you develop a wider
range of topics your teen feels comfortable telling you about.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
You're also modeling a great path for them to figure
out their own behavior, right. I mean, even as an adult,
sometimes when I do stuff and I screw stuff up
or I you know, lie or whatever, it's hard for
me to uncover the reasons behind that. I have to
get curious with myself. So if you're kind of modeling
curiosity with them, it also seems like a great strategy
to get them to realize, like, oh, this is the
same thing I can use when I screw up or
(34:44):
what I fail, or when I'm like not pleased with
my own behavior.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
It's exactly right. I mean, a parent's words becomes a
child's self talk. That's also the long term greedy nature
of good side. So there's going to be a time
when our teen is in their twenties and thirties and
they're going to do something that they're not proud of, right,
whatever it is. They lied to their spouse, or they
told their friends they couldn't go to dinner because they're sick,
(35:09):
but then their friends saw on Instagram they're actually just
with other friends, right, And you want your kid to
be able to pause and to say, I wonder why
I did that. If your kid can do that, which
by the way, comes from your curiosity in the face
of their struggle, they are going to be a much
more successful, resilient th though.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So when you feel that impulse to get all judgmental,
whether it's about your child or yourself, take a pause
and get curious. Not only is that eagerness to learn
more pleasant than feeling judgy, it also has the added
bonus of fostering personal growth. But can parents do more
than just get curious when a child is acting out?
Could we turn these unpleasant moments into positive experiences? What
(35:50):
if we could make these times fun even joyful. After
the break, doctor Becky will share a tool that she
keeps in her back pocket to make tough parenting moments
more playful. The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment.
Clinical psychologist doctor Becky Kennedy believes that the traditional reward
(36:14):
punishment model of parenting is not just ineffective, it can
also cause parents to miss out on important opportunities to
connect with their kids. Like adults, children learn best not
when they're feeling threatened or bribed, but when they feel
safe and supported and when they're having fun. In fact,
doctor Becky thinks we need to bring way more humor
and goofiness into parenting than most caregivers usually think.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Playfulness is so important and I just want to name here.
It's one of the hardest parts.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
For parents because parenting doesn't often feel playful. It just
feels like a grind one hundred percent all the time.
And so getting back to your hey, it's just funzie
time mode can just be really tough.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I think there's that, and I would say I don't
think most parents experienced a lot of playfulness from their parents,
true totally. People will say, why is it so hard
for me to do pretend play when my kid is young,
or just joke around with my teen when they're older,
and they my parents hold a lot of guilt, like
is something wrong with me? If play is hard for you,
(37:13):
and if play feels awkward, all that's a sign of
is play was likely not modeled to you by the
adults in your life. And so any effort you make
to be a little more playful, first all it will
be awkward. Anything new feels awkward. But I really want
anyone here just to tell themselves that's like a cycle
breaking act. I'm pretty brave and amazing to do something
with my kids that no one did with me. And
(37:35):
so why is playfulness important? I'll give a couple examples.
My kid's towel. Their towels are just always on the floor,
and like, I don't know why it drives me not
It's like I don't it's probably something inherited from my childhood,
Like of all the things, okay, the towels on the floor.
It's not like fine that you don't respect me, like
you know, but it does bother me. And for so
many years I feel like I've said, hey, have you
(37:57):
noticed the towel on the floor a couple of weeks ago.
This is what I said, because my kids always joked
that I'm so old and I'm over the hill. That's
what they like to say to me, you know, And
I'll say, this is so weird. I feel like, I
see your towel on the floor, but like my eyes
at my forties, like they're kind of going and like
I don't know. My kids like, yeah, mom, I think
you're over the hill, you know, and I don't think
(38:18):
there's a towel. Then I'm like really, because I'm gonna
like walk over there slowly. I'm gonna get on my
knees and just feel. And then while I do that,
guess what my kid does? They go get their towel.
And then I go and I touch the floor, and
I'm like, oh my goodness, that is so weird.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
My eyes are so bad. I meet by bifocals.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
How terrible. Yeah, I just think about how that could
go pick up your towel. I'm not picking up I'm
doing homework. If you don't pick up your towel, now,
no dessert. And then I'm like, why did I say that?
I don't want to withhold dessert, and then I'm like, Okay,
I guess you can have fruit and whip cream. That's
not really dessert. I'm making stuff up. I'm getting in
a fight. So what's the hardest part here? I actually
think a lot of the moments to choose joy and
(38:58):
to choose play, the alternative is in calm. Often the
alternative is control and anger. The moments when you want
to lead with control and anger are actual the best
moments to try to infuse some play. Another example of this,
and this is something I've done with younger kids for
a while, but I've adapted to an old or kid version.
Who is a kid who likes to clean up? Okay, look,
(39:19):
no one's raising their hand. Cool, nobody likes to clean up.
So what do you do when you have to get
your kid to clean up? Often you lead with anger
and control. If you don't clean up your toys, they're
all going to be in the garbage tomorrow. My kid's like, well,
I've heard that empty threat before. I have something I
called to close your eyesact. That's how it goes. I'm
just going to close dance and all I'm saying is
if when I open my eyes, all the red blocks
(39:39):
are in the bin and you can see I'm talking
slowly because guess what my kid is doing. They're doing it.
I might I might fall on the ground. I might
do when I was gonna say you're I might do
a butt dance and I might slap my butt. I
just think about like a boss at work being like,
oh my goodness, if your project is done, I might
fall to the ground and do a butt dance. I
(39:59):
feel like I'm like, I'm gonna finish my project. I
want to see that.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
You know, if all you need to do to get
the house clean is the butt dance, like bring it,
you know.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, here's what I think. I also want to empower
parents with people will say that won't work with my
sixteen year old. Whenever you say that won't work, it's
really limiting. Why does the close your eyes hack work? Okay?
Number one, you lead with trust and not control. If
you think about saying to a kid, clean up and
then you just stare at them again, imagine trying to
(40:29):
do a report with your boss watching you at the computer.
You'd freeze. If your boss at work says I trust
you to do this and walks away, You're gonna do
it and then add something silly and ridiculous. Trust silly ridiculous.
So for your sixteen year old, you could say, look,
one of your chores is to clear the table, or
you know, to make your bed. I'm gonna go check
(40:51):
on your sibling. If when I get back here that
that is made, I don't even know what I might do,
And I might just like delt into a ridiculous song
that like, all you guys are singing and you're gonna
tell me, Mom, you're so annoying. This is so cringe.
I just might do this and my sixteen year old
will roll their eyes, but they'll probably have a smile
on their face and I walk out. They feel more
connected to me, there's a little more joy, and I
(41:13):
bet the likelihood of that bed being made just skyrocketed.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I love this because you're able to get stuff done
without the negative emotion, right, And I feel like, if
only we can make parenting a little bit more goofy,
a little bit more joyful and fun, a little bit
more connected, parents would just feel so much better all
the time.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
I think that's right, and I think pushback I get
is when I said, so everything has to be a
game can't my kids just listen? But I think we
underestimate how much as adults we kind of cooperate with
other people for the same reasons, like for fun. At
the end of the day, cooperation and listening just means
I'm doing something you want me to do that I
don't want to do. Because anytime you say to a
(41:51):
sixteen year old, hey, you can be on your phone
for two hours, I don't know anyone who's like, I'm
not dealing it. When we're talking about cooperation, we really
mean I want my kid to do something and they
don't want to do it. So as an adult, if
you think I don't want to do something but someone
else wants me to do it, why would I listen
to them? Like if I'm having lunch with you, Louri
and one of my friends walks by and it's like,
(42:12):
can you guys both come help me pack up my
apartment and I'm like no, and they're like, well, if
you don't do it, I'm never going to be friends
into it. I'm like, yeah, not doing it. If they
say I have, it's like amazing, I don't know music
to play and I'm going to get some like ice
cream deliver or what do you think I feel like
you and I might be like, okay, yeah, lay in
levity is always a motivator to do things you don't
(42:34):
want to do. And so it's not do I have
to play games? Why can't my kid just listen? It's
actually kids operate based on the same principles adults operate
based on. I think this final insight is so important.
Kids are motivated by the same principles that adults are.
They prefer connection and validation to anger and judgment, and
they respond way more favorably to humor and fun than
(42:56):
they do to being forced. I'm so thrilled that doctor
Becky was able to share all her insights with us today.
Her good inside approach is a reminder that if we
respond to our kids defiance as a signal of unmet
needs or lagging skills, we can some and the curiosity
needed to discover what's really going on and react a
bit more happily. But let's do a quick recap of
(43:16):
the tips doctor Becky shared today. First, we need to
remember that the job description of being a parent involves
two separate but important roles. We need to set boundaries,
but we also need to validate. The boundary part keeps
children safe and grounded, while a validation part helps us
build trust and connection. But validation doesn't mean giving in
saying I.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Get how hard this is while holding the line, We'll
teach your child that their emotions are real and manageable
without rewarding that not so great behavior. Second, parents do
not need to fix a child's feelings, They just need
to make space for them, So challenge that happiness police mentality.
Your goal is not to make your kids happy all
the time, but to teach them that they can feel
safe sitting with this comfort, a lesson that's super important
(44:00):
for handling real life adversity. Later on Tip number three
one end out shoot for long term greedy parenting, Try
to avoid going for the kinds of short term comforts
that prevent resilience in the future. But give yourself some
grace while doing this, because parenting for the future is
not easy, which gets to tip number four multiplicity. Remember
that you need to hold two truths at once. I
(44:23):
love my kid deeply, and I'm okay letting them face
a tough moment. Tip number five summon curiosity. Curiosity leads
to understanding and change, but judgment usually keeps us and
our kids stuck. Tip number six is to choose playfulness
over control. Bringing the fun back to tough situations can
lead to connection and motivation without all the power struggles.
(44:45):
So the next time you're tempted to lay down the law,
maybe try a butt dance instead. Because play doesn't just
make parenting easier, it actually makes it more joyful too.
And today's final tip number seven, always give yourself and
your child the benefit of the doubt. As doctor Becky
often says, even when we're not at our best on
the outside, we're still good inside. Next week on the
(45:07):
Happiness Lab, we'll continue our deep dive into strategies for
happier parenting. We'll be asking what can we do to
better motivate our kids. We'll learn about the power of
developing what's called a mentor mindset. We'll see that there
are ways to hold our kids to high standards while
validating their agency and independence. We'll also hear how these
same strategies for collaborative troubleshooting can help you on the
(45:30):
job and in your relationships too. That's all next time
in our special season on Happier Parenting. On the Happiness
lab with me, Doctor Laurie Santos
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