Big Blue Kickoff Live 4/18 | Kent Lee Platte & Matt Waldman - Big Blue Kickoff Live | New York Giants

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
It's time for a big blue Kickoff line.

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Speaker 1 (00:22):
Part of the Giants podcast Network. Let's go on.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
Welcome to another edition of Big Book Kickoff Live, presented
by Cadillac, the official luxury vehicle the Giants. We are
off on Good Friday at the Giants facility. So Paul
and I thought we wanted to give you content. We'd
record a Big Book Kickoff Live for you today from
the Hackensack Marity Health Podcast that you'll keep getting better.
And to do that, we have two great guests. Matt Waldman,
who does the scouting RSP, will join us a little

(00:47):
bit later on in the show to talk about the
skill positions in the draft class. But we're going to
leave things off with Kentley Platt, who is the originator
of the RAS Relative Athletics Scores. You know him on
Twitter as math bomb Kent. Thanks for being with man.
Why don't you get fans that don't know what your
RAS scores are how you compile them and how they
should use them in context.

Speaker 5 (01:07):
Yeah, thanks for having me on again.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:09):
RAS is relative athletics scores. It compares a player's testing
metrics to their own position group over the last nearly
forty years now. The intention was to create a way
that provides a little context to the testing, to show
you whether not to test was good or bad or
somewhere in the middle by comparing it to their position group.
Across the entirety of the combine, almost everything is zero

(01:32):
to ten. Made it easy to understand. Everybody understands zero
to ten zeros never going to be the good one.
Ten is always going to be the good one. Five
right in the middle. All of these scores are stop
light color coded, so red, yellow, and green. Everybody can
kind of understand what red, yellow, and green means. The intention,
as I said, was to bring some context to this
testing and hopefully help people that are new to coming
into the sport and to the hobby of draft evaluation

(01:54):
and people that are die hard, just to give them
an easier way to look at it. It should never
be taken as gospel for whether or not a player
is good. It's just a tool in your arsenal to
be able to use for evaluation. If you have a
player that has a great score and bad tape, you're
probably still not going to draft them early. If you've
got a guy that's got poor testing but really good tape,
that's a negative against them. In the same way a

(02:16):
wide receiver drops a pass, or a quarterback has bad footwork,
or a corner is a little bit weaker on the line.
It's just a negative against them. Doesn't mean that their
entire evaluation needs to be poor. It's just a tool
that you can use to help evaluation. It should never
be the whole evaluation.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
So Ken, But before Paul gets into some of the
position rooms with you, I know I had trouble finding
a lot of the athletic testing this year. Did not
A lot of guys did a lot of stuff at
the combine, A lot of guys didn't test at all.
Did you find this year you had more blank cards
where you just didn't have enough data to compile on
RIS score for certain players than in past years.

Speaker 5 (02:51):
It's actually the opposite overall from a draft perspective. We've
got almost five hundred players more in this draft class
than we had in the next largest draft class for
the RAS database. The thing that you're seeing, though, that's
a real thing. That's the guys at the top of
the draft. The first round is going to have maybe
ten or fifteen guys that actually have a score, and
the rest of them simply skipped. It's always been common

(03:15):
that the higher drafted guys are not going to test.
We've seen it from quarterbacks for the last thirty years.
You see it occasionally from the other positions, and that's
just expanded. So a lot of the top receivers they
don't test. Now, a lot of the top offensive linemen
skip out on testing. Now, I think we got lucky
with our offensive lineman in this particular class. A lot

(03:36):
of the top pass rushers and defenders, though, they skip
testing this year. So the first round is going to
be pretty bare, but we should have pretty much everybody
from the second round on ken.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
You've been doing this for a long time, so I'm
going to ask you a big picture question, and I
don't know how much backtracking you've done. We're gone into
your history books and said, you know what, it turned
out that our raz actually did equate to a guy
who turned out to be really really good. Have you
been able to determine which positions the raz really does

(04:07):
turn out to wind up being an accurate reflection of
what the guy winds up being in a way.

Speaker 5 (04:13):
So there's so many draft prospects that come out every
year and almost none of them get drafted. For example,
I mentioned this is the largest draft class that we had.
Less than ten percent of the players that I have
in my database are going to get drafted. I've over
twenty eight hundred people in the draft class, but only
two hundred and fifty are going to get drafted. So
the fail rate coming into the NFL, regardless of testing,

(04:35):
regardless of traditional statistics, regardless of starts and all that
other stuff, is going to fail. It's just a fact
of the way that things work in the NFL. But
when you look at those success groups, your thousand yard receivers,
I've been doing some work one thousand yard rushers lately,
pro bowlers, you tend to find that those guys are
the top tier athletes. It shows up at some positions
more than others. Tight End is probably the easiest one

(04:56):
to point to. There has never been a tight end
with the ras below five drafted in the first round.
There's only ever been one running back in the first
round drafted with a RAS below five. Those NFL teams
just don't draft guys with core testing in the early rounds.
You see it in the second and third round as well.
It's like eighty something percent of the players in the
second round are in that top twenty percent athletically, and

(05:19):
you see it throughout the entire draft because the successful
guys tend to be.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
In that group.

Speaker 5 (05:23):
So yeah, definitely tight end, pass rusher, offensive tackle, and
running back of the big ones.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
All right, I want to go to defensive tackle here, Ken,
which trade to defensive tackle before we get to the
actual players really tend to you to move the needle
from a testing perspective, that does translate to being effective
at the position.

Speaker 5 (05:46):
So if you're a straight up pass rushing defensive tackle,
I want a really good broad jump from you. The
broad that's going from a standing stop and propelling your
entire weight forward as fast and as far as you can.
That's obviously a trait that defensive lineman use every single snap.
It's one of the only metrics that really matters for
nose tackles. Nose tackles most of the rest of the
testing you can just ignore because they're not running very

(06:08):
far throughout a whole game, let alone on every play.
But the pass rushing defensive tackles you want them to
be very explosive, so the broad jump is important when
you can. You want to get a guy with that quickness.
You hear guys talk about a dancing bear. That's one
of those superlatives we like to use. Defensive tackle that's
got really good agility, agility drills, the shuttle in the cone.
That usually means a guy who's got really good footwork.

(06:29):
When you're working in the trenches against a bunch of
other big guys, being able to move quickly can be
a really big advantage for run defenders. Like I mentioned,
the nose tackle guys you don't really care about most
of the testing. You want a guy with a good
broad a good ten yard split. If you can get
a nose tackle with good agility drills, even average agility drills,
that's going to be a big deal because those kind

(06:51):
of guys that are that big, they don't tend to
be very agile and quick. But if you can find
a guy that's got that, that's a really big advantage.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
Well, that's interesting that you mentioned in that camp, because
I certainly wanted to go right to the defensive tackle spot.
There are so many quality defensive tackles in this draft.
We all seem to believe there's at least three rounds
of guys who were gonna make it and do well
in the NFL.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
But of the guys who.

Speaker 3 (07:16):
Are three hundred and thirty three hundred and forty pounds,
and there's certainly a slew of those guys, are there
some that stick out athletically that you're saying, Man, there's
no way they should be this agile kind of like
Dexter Lawrence was when the Giants got him.

Speaker 5 (07:32):
Not to the level that Dexter Lawrence was. And I'm
glad that you mentioned him, because he's one of those guys, right,
He's one of those nose tackles who came in with
that ridiculous size, but he still had an incredible amount
of athleticism. Nose tackles aren't generally very athletic from a
testing standpoint, Dexter Lawrence was, and Videvea is another really
good example of a guy that had all of that

(07:53):
size but still had all that athleticism. The big one
from this draft class is Kenneth Grant. He doesn't have
that level, but he is a three hundred and thirty
pound defensive tackle who ran a one to seven to ten
yard split, which is a very good ten yard split
for any defensive tackle, let alone a guy who's three
hundred and thirty pounds. He didn't have a great broad,
but he had an above average one and he had

(08:15):
a very good vertical jump, so he's got some pretty
good explosion in that lower body. Again, especially when you
consider his size, and I mentioned you want if you
can get a nose tackle with a good cone time,
that's a really huge advantage. Kenneth Grant has. That he
ran a seven to six nine, which is about sixtieth
percentile for a defensive tackle. That's incredible for a nose tackle.
You never get a nose tackle. And this is where

(08:35):
sometimes raz won't tell the whole story because his RAS
is only seven point one eight out of ten. That's,
you know, okay, that's above average, that's good, but that's
not in that great range. But when you consider that
he's a nose tackle and he has the individual test
that he has, that's when that granularity starts to tell you,
this is a guy that's pretty dang athletic for the
kind of size and the position that he plays.

Speaker 4 (08:54):
Ken I want to throw another guy in that category out.
He's not as big weight wise as Kenneth. Granted that CJ.
West out of Indiana who will play nose tackle, and
he's a run stuffer. He's short, he's only six to one.
But his testing overall is vert was good. His forty
was good, his ten yard was above average. That's another
guy who's a plugger, a run stuffer, but his athletic

(09:17):
testing came out a lot better than I thought it
would after taking a look at him on tape.

Speaker 5 (09:22):
Yeah, and he doesn't fall into that nose tackle size
as we mentioned, I guys really big. He's almost three twenty.
It's not like he's small. He's still a pretty big guy.
But he doesn't have that you know, three thirty three forty.
He doesn't have thirty four inch arms like a lot
of those nose tackles does or do, so he doesn't
have those individual elite nose tackle measurables. But what he

(09:43):
does have is the kind of quickness and speed and
explosion that you don't usually get from a nose tackle
and an interior run defender, so I think he makes
up for it quite a bit. And maybe you run
into some trouble early on as he's trying to gain
some weight and get up against those offensive linemen. He's
going to be faced on the interior. But having that
kind of athletic ability, he'll lose a little bit of

(10:03):
it if he gains weight, but not all of it.
That's a pretty athletic guy.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
I can I just stay with this position for a minute.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
I know we want to get to some other defenders,
but are there guys such as a Mason Graham who
you really wished that you did have the stat pack
on so that you.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Could run him through the equation.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
I'm just hey, he's one of my favorite guys, and
I just love his motor and I love his agility.
I got a feeling that you probably would have really
liked to see his numbers.

Speaker 5 (10:33):
I love everybody tested. You know, they do this for
the NFL teams. They don't do this for me specifically.
It would be nice if they would listen to me
and just all of them do the drills. But some
players will skip, you know, because they have an injury
or something, they'll skip or because of some other reason.
We had a bunch of guys that skip testing because
their pro DA happened to be during Ramadan and they
were in the middle of fasting. But Mason Graham is

(10:55):
obviously the big one. I really would have wished we
got a full program profile. Dereck Harmon from Oregon, that's
another guy that I really like. He's probably going to
be towards the end of the first round. Extremely athletic,
big guy. And then Walter Nolan from Ole miss is
another guy that we didn't get the testing numbers on
that I think everybody kind of wanted. Kylee Williams got hurt,
so he wasn't able to complete all of his drills

(11:16):
to get a full one. I would have liked to
get his as well. So again, a lot of these
guys in the top of the draft we're gonna miss
out on getting scores from. And it's really unfortunate because
I would have loved to see what Mason Graham and
Derek Carmon would have put up.

Speaker 4 (11:27):
Yeah, last one for me on defensive tackle, Ken Darius
Alexander out of Toledo. He came in just under six
four three hundred and five pounds, ran well, jumped well,
but his agility drills were not the best is his
shuttle time was poor. His three cone time was average
or a little bit above average. I guess my question
for you, for a guy that I think depends on

(11:49):
his upfield quickness and burst, how much of a red
flag should those agility drills be.

Speaker 5 (11:56):
It's not not a red flag, right. You want a
guy that's gonna test well across the board. When a
guy doesn't, you need to look at what that consideration
is going to be. He did have a pretty good cone.
His cone was about seventy first percentile, which is pretty decent,
but you mentioned that shuttle time that's only thirty seventh percentile.

Speaker 6 (12:11):
That's much lower.

Speaker 5 (12:13):
The cone is showing how much you can bend. It's
showing your ajoity to get around a corner and things
like that. The shuttle is generally your start and stop.
That's why it's such a big deal for offensive linemen
because they do a lot of that side by side
and stopping and immediately changing directs in one hundred and
eighty degrees. That can be a problem if you're that
kind of guy who wins through that type of agility.

(12:34):
But the explosion that he has and the over eightieth
percentile they have for both of his explosion drills, that's
really for me what's important for him on the interior
as a pass rusher. Same thing with his ten yard
split that was over eightieth percentile. So if you have
a guy that you expect to be able to get
into the backfield quickly, he's got those traits. Maybe it
inhibits him a little bit when things start to get

(12:56):
a little bit dirty over the course of a game.
But if you've got a guy that can burst into
the back field quickly, that's advantageous.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
Well, we know that you know Abdul Carter obviously with
the foot thing during the combined he didn't do anything,
so you're not going to have numbers with him. But
was there an edge rusher that kind of made you
drop your jaw a little bit? And this year's testing
where maybe you weren't short and then all of a
sudden you looked at the numbers and said, Hey, this

(13:23):
guy's got some real explosion that's going to open some
people's eyes.

Speaker 5 (13:28):
Yeah, and I can't I can't ignore Shamark Stewart there,
he took over the ten spot for REVZ. There's only
ever one guy at the top for any position in
res and it can change. Somebody can take it away.
We've had the same guy at defensive end for many years,
just some guy who was like a seventh round pick
for the Chiefs back in like two thousand and two
or something. But all the other guys near at the top,

(13:48):
you have, you know, Kyle Vandenbosch, Miles Garrett, Javon Kurse,
guys like that, the very cream of the crop for
NFL pass rushers, and then just some guy at the top.
But Shamar Stewart took that away and now we have
a pretty well thought of prospect who's actually scoring pretty well.
So a from a totally selfish standpoint, I want him
to do well in the NFL, just so it's not

(14:10):
some guy anymore. But when I went back to his tape,
this guy didn't have a lot of production. And we
had four and a half sacks in college. We've seen
that before. Danielle Hunter had very few sacks in college.
He was a third round pick in Minnesota, landed in
the perfect spot with a perfect coach, was able to
make use of that athleticism. I think that's what you're
gonna see with Shamar Stewart is he's really got a

(14:30):
land with a team with a very strong defensive line
coach and a philosophy that is using him to get
upfield really quickly. He didn't have very many sacks, but
he did have quite a few pressures at Texas A
and M. So I'm interested to see how his career goes.
And selfishly I'm rooting for him. I root for all
these guys, but for a purely mathematical standpoint, I want
Samara Stewart to do well.

Speaker 4 (14:52):
Land In Jackson's another guy that I was surprised tested
as well as he did, because I think on tape
he's very solid, he's got long arms, he's got power,
But man, he tested off the charge. His jumps were phenomenal.
You always got the size already. What stood out to
you about Landon Jackson, who has the second best RAZ
score of any edge player in this year's class.

Speaker 5 (15:11):
Yeah, and you and you mentioned exactly the guys that
pop right, guys that has something pop out at you.
Landon Jackson had a forty and a half inch vertical
that's ninety ninth percent of It's one of the best
verticals ever for a defensive end, and it might be
the best at a combine, I'm not sure, but if not,
it's pretty dang close. Anybody gets over forty inch and
of her, that's a really big deal. But we're usually

(15:33):
talking about skilled players, your wide receivers, your cornerbacks, occasionally
running backs will You're rarely talking about a defensive end
who gets that. And then his broad jump was ten
foot nine, which is also ninety ninth percentile, So ninety
nine percentile explosive drills is is gonna turn some heads.
He also had a nearly seven cone. He had seven

(15:54):
point one to three, which is over eightieth percentile. It's
in that elite range. It's not in that really elite
range low seven, but it's very very close. And when
you pair that with the fact that he has those
ridiculous explosive drills you mentioned, he has really long arms,
big hands, it's a lot of athletic traits to work with.
They're very excited to see what he's able to do
and if he's able to live up to that potential,

(16:15):
because you didn't see it quite as much in college.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yea.

Speaker 4 (16:17):
And then, by the way, Ashton Jilats the other guy
I want to bring up to a Vegas. He's not
shaped like your normal defensive end. He's kind of squatty.
He's got short arms under thirty two inches, he's only
six two and a half. But man, his testing was
off the charts.

Speaker 5 (16:31):
Yeah, it was phenomenally. He was He was a big guy,
and he does have that top tier con draw. He's
one of only a couple of players. I think we
only had two in this class that had a three
cone under seven. He had a six point nine to
four to three cone. That's phenomenal. A one point five
nine ten yards split that's also phenomenous. Nearly ninety fifth
percent out.

Speaker 6 (16:50):
Both of his.

Speaker 5 (16:51):
Explosion drills were really good. Like you said, he tested
off the charts. The length is a bit of an issue.
He has small hands and short arms. That's gonna put
some people. Is going to concern for some people. I
think that that's not that big of a deal. If
you have athleticism, and he's got plenty of that to spare.
If he has a pass rushing repertoire of even a
couple of moves, he's going to find a role in

(17:12):
the NFL as a situational pass rusher. At the very least,
you're looking at a potential starter, for sure, but at
the very least you're getting a guy that can rush
the passer.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Keed, Can I flip it the other way?

Speaker 3 (17:24):
Was there a name of a guy who you thought
was going to be highly chouted as an edge rusher
going in that after the numbers came down, you kind
of shook your head and said, geez, I'm really disappointed there.
I wonder how many people are going to have to
take a second look.

Speaker 4 (17:38):
Same question for defensive tackle. Why don't you give us
one name from both?

Speaker 5 (17:40):
Good question, Paul, Yeah, so we didn't really have too
many from the defensive ends. A lot of the defensive
ends just the nature of the combine. A lot of
the guys at the combine did really well defensive tackles.
We've got a lot of nose tackles in this class,
so you kind of have to sift through the guys
that maybe didn't have the best score, but you didn't

(18:01):
really expect him to because they were a nose tackle.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
One of those.

Speaker 5 (18:06):
Guys is Dean Walker from Kentucky. The reason I bring
him up specifically is because he had a below average rast.
But he's a nose tackle, so we don't care, right,
But his ten yard split was incredibly bad. It was
it was very very low. It was only ninth percentile.
You want that ten yard split to be good for
your nose tackles. You don't really care about the forty

(18:26):
yard yard dash at all, but you want that ten
yard split to be good. And it was his worst drill.
He didn't put up very many reps in the bench.
He's got very long arms, so that's not really that
much of a concern. He also had a back injury
that we found out about at the combine that he
had played through last year. But you know, having a
low score not that big of a deal, but also

(18:46):
having that low split that was really concerning for me.
I'm not sure how that's going to translate when he
gets up to the NFL. You can't just be a guy
who's immovable. You still got to be able to do
some movement when you're in When you're a nose tackle, all.

Speaker 4 (18:58):
Right, I want to jump the cornerback or ken So
I'll want to go to Darian Porter, who I think
is an interesting player. He finished just off your top
RIZ score at the corner position. He's long, he's fast,
but he's been in college football for a long time
but hasn't played cornerback for a long time. I think
he's just a really interesting player to look at.

Speaker 5 (19:20):
Yeah, and that athletic trades. When you have a guy
with his kind of background where he's kind of growing
in the position yet the trouble doesn't really become evaluation
and determining whether or not you think he can be
a good player. I think that he's shown enough on
tape to show that his athletic traits pop when he's playing.
The question is going to become valuation, Right, where do
you value a guy that doesn't have as much plus
tape at that specific position. He's kind of still growing

(19:42):
into it. So where do you value that? Because you
know he has the athletic traits, you know that you've
seen that he can learn this stuff. But the whole
thing about the NFL draft is banking on player development,
and when you have a guy like that, that's the
whole story is player development. So you have to really
have a lot of confidence in your in your dB room.
You've got to have a lot of confidence in your
head coaches ability to develop the talent underneath him, and

(20:05):
your defensive coach's ability to scheme for a player that
needs that development. It's really interesting to watch guys like
that come out who don't have significant injury issues either,
because that's another thing that comes up fairly often at
corner is really athletic guys, but they're kind of dinged
up a lot. I don't think we really have that
with their importer. I might be wrong, but I don't
remember seeing any significant injury issues with him, So it's

(20:27):
kind of just, you know, a put up or shut
up type thing. When he gets on an NFL team,
is he going to be able to use that athleticism
to really show that he can play in the NFL?
And is he going to have the right coaching staff
in place.

Speaker 6 (20:37):
To develop that.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
A guy like Cancock Ott of Ohio State, who was
your second rated score based on the corners he to me,
brings up a very interesting question because when you look
at his RAZ score, you probably think, Okay, he's going
to be better off in the slot than he is
on the boundary. But the problem is he doesn't play
with enough strength and physicality as a tackler to be

(21:02):
a slot corner. So to me, that kind of creates
somewhat of a dilemma when you look at the score
compared to some of the other intangible traits that he
might need to move positions, because.

Speaker 5 (21:15):
You can be as fast as lightning. But if you're
not going to tackle a guy, it doesn't matter if
you can catch him. You know, if I can catch
a guy and all I can do is push him around,
it doesn't matter that I caught him right, You still
got to be able to take the guy down doubt,
And that's where you fall into does thee where does
the tape fall into that? Because do you think that
you can teach him to have that mentality? It's hard

(21:35):
to change a guy's attitude. You can teach a guy
how to tackle the actual mechanicals, the fundamentals of it,
but you can't teach a guy to want to. Want
to is almost impossible to teach for any position, for
any skill, you got to just have it. And if
you're concerned is that he might not have it. That's
where you fall back into that valuation. If he can't,
if he isn't going to tackle, can you get him

(21:56):
just based on just ball skills alone, and is his
ball or are his balls feels good enough to be
able to overcome not being able to be a good tackler.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
John Ay Barron is a player that is interested in
the first round consideration. I think I like him a
little bit better than Will Johnson, even should I have
concerns about his raz scores? Here, Kent, the forty yard
dash is good, the twenty yards split is good. The
ten yard split is just outside the green, so that's okay.
But the agility and the jumps, they're kind of between

(22:24):
the fifty fifth and seventieth percentile, kind of in that
area for a corner. How concerning is that? And have
you seen corners that are more in the yellow than
the green? And a lot of these categories still end
up being really really good players when there were only
five eleven, one hundred and eighty four pounds.

Speaker 5 (22:40):
Yeah, And this is where you get into that argument
about you do you really care as much about elite
physical traits as you do not having negative traits? Because
if you have a player who doesn't have any red marks,
but he doesn't really have green marks, his green mark
is that he doesn't have rent marks, Right, where do
you value that and do you believe that's a guy
that can can in the NFL From a historical standpoint,

(23:02):
we've seen guys like that before. Is it Jalen Johnson
from on the Bears? I think it is that right
about in that range where he's in the kind of
seventieth percentile. We've had guys that tested below average that
have done well in the NFL and corner and that
doesn't happen very often, but it does occasionally happen. The
question you really have to ask yourself is is the
lack of elite physical traits going to be a problem?

(23:26):
And usually that's going to be a no from me.
When I'm evaluating a player, I'm less concerned about whether
or not he has elite traits that I am whether
or not he has something that's going to make him
a liability on the field, Because if you have a
guy that has elite speed we're actually just talking about
a second. You have a guy with all those athletic traits,
but you can't tackle, that's a problem. It's the same

(23:46):
thing with a guy. Yeah, he can run with most players.
He's pretty explosive, He's not so stiff that he's not
going to be able to change routes when a wide
receiver crosses his face. But maybe he's not elite in
any of those areas, but none of those are negatives.
To me, that's a pretty big deal when you have
a guy that can meet that kind of kind of standard.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
I want to ask you about the safeties. Kn't because
we've all been told that this is not a very
impressive safety class. But when I looked at your scores,
you had quite a collection of both strong safeties and
free safeties in the green led by Emanuora, of course
out of South Carolina, who we all kind of look
at as it was almost a freak because he just

(24:29):
does stuff at his size he should not be able
to do.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
How surprising was that to you?

Speaker 3 (24:36):
Eye popping perhaps that the safeties are maybe not getting
some more play.

Speaker 5 (24:41):
So when we break them up between strong safety and
free safety, strong safeties tend to be the more athletic ones.
They're the guys that play towards the line, So maybe
you wouldn't think that they'd be the more athletic ones.
You think the guys in the back would have to
cover all that ground that they would be But We've
had a ton of free safeties come out that play
that back safety who don't really we have the most
elite traits. The top free safety in this class for

(25:04):
most is Malachi Starks from Georgia, and he didn't have
any really elite athletic trades. He ended up with a
RAZ of just over average, about five point two nine.
That's not great, especially when you're compared to em and
Warrey who had that ten. He had that top tier
athletic training, and he's exciting for me because when we
get guys like that at safety, generally, this is guys

(25:24):
who raise up in the draft because of their elite testing.
Your Taylor Mays and Jordan Chin from the a couple
of years ago, they rose up because of that athletic traits.
Evan Worry was already there, he was already considered that
either the number one or number two safety in the class,
and then he tested really well. I think his testing
as well as he did, hurts Malachi Starks more than

(25:45):
Starks his own testing which was, you know, again just
about average, not eye popping, but not terrible. But I
think both have a lot of potential would be really
good players for different reasons they played different roles in
the NFL, and I think that on tape you see
that those those translatable traits pretty well. It's not as
much of a concern when you have a free safety

(26:05):
that doesn't test that well. So that's that's a good sign.
But there's a lot of athletic safeties in this class,
like you mentioned, and that gives people a lot of
opportunities with better value in the in the mid to
late rounds on guys they think they can develop up,
which could hurt Starks because if you can develop a guy,
why would you take the guy high?

Speaker 4 (26:22):
And final question, we have another guest coming up here
in a minute. The tackles in this class all tested
really well, the ones that tested, so I'm going to
kind of skip over them because I don't think there's
any red flags there with any of those guys. I
want to ask you about Tyler Booker though, the guard
out of Alabama. He's a player that I think on
tape you love him. I didn't think he had any
athletic issues on tape, but some of his testing historically

(26:43):
is historically bad to be to be just be honest
about it, how do you view that for a guard
and how important is that at the guard position if
a guy does test that poorly.

Speaker 5 (26:52):
So we've we've it's very important for all offensive linemen
to have to have good testing. We have examples of
guys with pore testing, both on the outside the inside
that have found NFL success and we can usually explain it.
And I think that's going to be the case with
Tyler Booker. He doesn't have a lead athleticism. He does
look a little bit heavy footed on tape at times,
and that'll only turn you off. If you're a scheme

(27:14):
that requires you to do a lot of pulling. You
have to pull across the line a lot, and I
don't think that enough teams in the NFL are doing
that as often enough that that's going to be too
much of a problem when he gets to the NFL,
Because even if he can't do it, he doesn't have
to be the one that pulls. You can pull the tackle,
you can pull the center, you can do other things,
and if he does everything else good enough, which I

(27:35):
believe he does, I don't think it's too much of
a concern for him. We haven't had a player with
a below average razz get drafted in the first round.
Since twenty nineteen it was the Giants with DeAndre Baker.
But I think that Booker is going to be that
one this year. I think he's going to get drafted
in the first round.

Speaker 4 (27:51):
Still, Ken, also stuff, my friend. We always appreciate the time.
Tell the folks where they can find all your razz scores.

Speaker 6 (27:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
Thanks.

Speaker 5 (27:58):
You can find me on Twitter at math bomb, and
of course my website is our as dot football. We
have almost thirty thousand players again, almost twenty eight hundred
from this class alone. You can check out all of
their testing there, and you can follow me on my
socials to get all the little analytic tidbits as we
get them.

Speaker 4 (28:15):
Yeah, and this is a great follow on draft night guys.
As guys get drafted, Ken puts up the RAS card
for every pick, so you get a quick access to
their athletic scores, which is fantastic. Ken, thanks so much,
enjoy the process, enjoy the next two weeks, and then
enjoy a well deserved rest.

Speaker 5 (28:29):
Appreciate you fellas.

Speaker 4 (28:29):
I have a goo one that's Kentley Platt, you know
ams math Bomb. We thank you for joining us on
this episode of Big Blue Kickoff. Li just reminder, folks,
go check out what we have on the Draft Season
and Giants Huddle podcast or on the Giants Huddle podcast
feed on your favorite podcast platform. Also on the Giants
a giants dot Com slash podcast. Chris Sims went up
on Friday this week. We also had Nate Tice, We

(28:50):
had Tony Pauline and I did our sleepers in first
round grades on Draft Season earlier in the week. We
had late last week we had Dame Bruler and Matt Miller,
Charles Davis, a bunch of guys going up on that
Giants Httle podcast feed. Make sure you check it out.
It's a lot of really good content and I think
you guys will really enjoy it if you go check

(29:11):
that out on those feeds. So now we go to
our next guest. He joins us every year around this time.
He is Matt Waldman. He authors the Scouting rsp Matt,
good to talk to you, as always, my friend. Tell
the folks about the book and where they can find
it before we get going here.

Speaker 6 (29:27):
Oh, it's a pleasure. You can find it at Matt
Waldman dot com. It's and it's twentieth year of publication
and it's one of the two most purchased draft guides
by teams who visit, you know, recruiting coordinators and directors
at schools. You know, guys like Alex Brown tell me
that on a regular basis, he's a recruiter over at
Ole Miss And you used to be recruiting director at
SMU Rice and then working with Tom Harmon over at

(29:51):
Houston way back in the day. So it's a twelve
hundred page draft guide that takes a different look than
what you'd see from say The Beast and Matt Miller
and the those guys. They do great work, but I
divorced myself from what teams think about a player, and
I try not to report what the draft capital is
expected to be and combine that with talent. I prefer

(30:11):
to look at talent purely on the field, with a
lot of different metrics and film study that goes into it,
and then do a post draft after that. You get
pre draft and post draft for one price at Matt
Waldman dot com.

Speaker 4 (30:24):
Yeah, it's huge. There's a ton of information, and Matt
focuses on the skill position guys, So it's quarterbacks, running backs,
wide receivers, tight ends. Those are the spots we're gonna
hit with Matt here moving forward. What's your methodology Matt?
But before we get into the player specifically, and what
do you track? It's basically like film like player tracking
while watching film, right, So you do what four games

(30:45):
of player? Is that? What you do? You do?

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Six?

Speaker 4 (30:47):
How many?

Speaker 6 (30:48):
Yeah? What I do is I'll do I'll different do
different charting techniques with each of those positions. I have
criteria points for specific for each position that are based
in really how coaches teach players, not you know, like
coaches who work with players outside of the NFL. I'm

(31:08):
on their skills, techniques and concepts and athletic ability. And
I'll usually chart somewhere between four to six games with
each player, but I watch two to three years worth
of tape. So after I do all the scouting and
looking at these, you know, one hundred to one hundred
and fifty criteria points on each player, and I do
it for each game, then I go back and say,

(31:28):
what did I not see enough of? What are some
things that I need to get clarification on? And then
I'll go back and look at about two three years
worth of tape.

Speaker 4 (31:37):
And I met I really think, you know, you've hit
some guys that other people don't like. You've singled out
guys that other people do like that that maybe you're
not as high on. So why don't we start the
quarterback position here? And I want to focus on somebody
that you like more than others, and I think he
is great promise. But you have Jalen Milro as the
second best quarterback in this class, in the same tier

(31:57):
as cam Ward. My question simply is why.

Speaker 6 (32:00):
Yeah, And I'd say that, you know, it's one of
those things. Usually I joke around with people that the
first response to becoming a full time subscriber with the
RSPs to think I'm an idiot. I mean, that's generally
like the that's generally the first step and becoming a
lifetime subscriber. But that's usually when people said that about me,
thinking Patrick Mahomes is a generational prospect, Lamar Jackson indeed

(32:21):
was a very strong quarterback and the best pocket quarterback
in that class, or that brock Perty actually could be
a starter in a year or two, you know. So
you know, I've kind of been known for this type
of stuff and I missed. But Jalen Milroe, if I
look at him, as a quarterback. One of the things
that I really value is on field processing, and I'm
not talking about S two test processing, which hopefully they

(32:44):
continue to improve that and it becomes an asset to
NFL teams. But it's not just about how quickly you
identify information on the field, it's how quick how confidently
you actually act on it. So Alex Smith, the form quarterback,
was a great example of a guy who had great processing.

(33:05):
He saw everything very quickly, but he was like an
economist a little bit in terms of acting on the information.
He needed a little more data, he needed another step,
another two steps, and then he was a little behind
receivers or never throwing the ball where he needed to
throw it. Where's a guy like Mahomes or even Brett
fav You can look back in the day and even
with all the interceptions he had, but the highs that

(33:26):
he has a three time MVP and even though he
had asked, you know, Ty Detmer two years into it, hey,
what's a nickel defense? You know, the way that he
read the field, he was so confident in what he
saw that the ball was out. And you need that
combination of what you see correctly and getting the ball
out on time, and Milroe shows that. Mil Roe also

(33:48):
not only does he show that, but he can manipulate
linebackers and flat defenders, not on his first read, not
during the initial drop, but after he set his feet
in the pocket and he's got guard getting pushed back
into his lap, and he's manipulating linebackers to move two
steps over on things like you know, mesh routes to

(34:09):
be able to move that guy in the minute the
guy moves, turn and throw. He's he's got very quiet
feet like Lamar Jackson does. When when he they move
in the pocket, it's incremental. Their eyes are downfield, They're
able to access throwing lanes quickly. And then when he
decides to run, well, he runs like Matt Forte in
the open field with that four to three plus speed.

(34:31):
And that's you know, that's the thing that the weakness
his touch throws aren't great. He needs to improve his touch.
If he winds up with New York, for instance, it'd
be great because he could access opportunities to watch how
Russell Wilson throws those moonballs, which is some of the
best things he does, you know, historically in the league.
In the vertical game, he could work on that in

(34:53):
the short area and in the intermediate range. But when
I look at his game, I think, you know, people
all the Senior Bowl and they felt like he's throwing
the people's ankles, and they're like, oh, he doesn't have accuracy.
It's not the truth. It's just you know, sometimes receivers
and the quarterbacks aren't on the same page there in
terms of how they're reading things and what the route
ups are going to be and all of that. And

(35:15):
it's one week of practice. I don't really worry about that.
From what I've seen in the games, it's very good.
He has one of the most compact releases I've ever seen.
His drop back footwork is actually very sound. You look
at cam Ward, who I think is a good prospect,
but you look cam Warre and it's RPOs and four verts.
So what you're looking at and I'm not saying that's

(35:35):
all he does, but so much of is that that
you rarely see him execute a unfragmented three step or
five step drop, which is a cornerstone of pro passing games.
So if you're not doing that smoothly, and we don't
have proof to see whether you really can, how much
is that can to impact timing, especially with a more
voluminous playbook with a lot more adjustments and things like that.

(35:57):
Milroe already shows that ability. So when I look at him,
I think all these quarterbacks in this class would benefit
from at least eight to twelve games on the bench
at least, and I'd love to see him spend a
year away. But from my perspective, if you take the
way the consensus sees these quarterbacks and subtract one round
from each of them, maybe a round and a half,

(36:19):
and keep Miro steady where he is, I think that's
how the rankings should probably play out from what I've seen.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Matt, you listed another guy as being underrated, and I
think that's pretty obvious since you don't hear his name
very much even in the second tier. And that was
a guy who was in the Shrine game. That would
be Curtis Wark out of Indiana. Now we know we
had the ACL thing, and I get that obviously that
you know that's just a medical thing he's had overcome.
But you were quite positive on him. I wonder again,

(36:49):
how surprised were you as you were going through his
tape that you started to say, man, I really like
this guy more than everybody else seems to.

Speaker 6 (36:57):
Yeah, I mean for me, I think what tends to
have is I divorced myself from seeing what everybody else
thinks until I'm done, and that's when I tend to
be surprised. So and there's a lot of things narrative wise,
I don't look at so Like the joke among my
subscribers in the past was that I didn't know Lamar
Jackson won the Heisman until like July or August of
the next year because I'm just busy watching tape. I'm

(37:21):
studying these guys. I'm watching all twenty two. I'm in
my own world doing this, and then I'll casually go
I want to learn a little bit more about this
guy now that I've seen what I've said. Oh, he
won the Heisman last year, that's great, you know. But
like so, when I looked at Rourke, I'm studying him
and I didn't know what anybody thought of him. I'm
just studying watching him pick apart defenses, watching how he

(37:41):
moves in the pocket, and the fact that he can
throw to the opposite field with pretty good accuracy, and
that he was tough and while he's not brock Purty
in the terms of mobility and pocket management. He's a
good pocket manager. I would say, like he's closer to
the Tom Brady end of the spectrum, where it's like
when he moves when he has to move, you know,

(38:02):
and you know, he may not be the boxer with
the footwork that Tom Brady was, but he's he's pretty good,
you know, in that regard. And so after watching all
of that I saw from him, and then I learned
in January that he played on a torn ACL since August.
That adds a lot to the profile. And if as
long as medicals are good, like where it's not a

(38:24):
torn he doesn't have history of torn meniscus or multiple
tendons or ligaments torn in addition to the ACL. Healing
in ACL takes time, but you're as good as new
after it happens. So even though he's had two torn
acls to the same knee, the fact that he tore
it a second time and played through it and it
sounds like nobody really knew. I mean, that's that's very

(38:46):
impressive about this dude. I just look at him and say,
because I'm not looking at draft capital, I can tell
my readers after I look at it all and go say, listen,
you're not draft You know, if you're a fantasy player
or a fan, you're not expecting a team the draft
this guy in the first five or six rounds. You
might take him in round seven if you don't want
to try to get a you don't want to get

(39:07):
out bid, and you sign him and you give him
a red shirt year, and then you see if he
can become at the very least a very strong backup,
and then if he continues to show a little bit
more than that, you may have found a gem.

Speaker 4 (39:19):
All right, Matt. In that second tier quarterback you mentioned Rourke,
that's where you of him. Then you also have Jackson Dart,
Tyler Shook, and shad Or Sanders in that second tier.
For you curious about Shador because so there's a large
segment of giant fans. I want them to take him
at three and I'm curious why you have him in
that second tier and what's kind of holding you back

(39:40):
on his evaluation?

Speaker 6 (39:42):
Well, I think that more than anything is that he
has a grade for me that says you know, he
can he can be in a starting lineup right now
and contribute as the starter if you have a strong
team around him, and you know, but when you look at,
you know, the ceiling of where he could be. I

(40:04):
think that he's closer to his ceiling than guys like
Noro and cam War. But you know, I think that
that's really more what we're looking at here. So with Sanders,
he doesn't when he makes mistakes, he tends to realize
what he's done, and when defenders try to bait him

(40:24):
again with the similar type of situation or disguise, he
doesn't fall for the bait. He can move around the pocket,
but his high end level of mobility is limited to
more of a geno Smith, to a tongue of Illoa
Baker Mayfield type. You know, guys who look really mobile
in college, but then when they're going to face the
three hundred pounds defensive alignment who are quicker than them

(40:47):
on every team, they start to have to recalibrate how
athletic they truly are in the pocket and that they
got to get rid of the ball sooner. You know,
good but not great arm I would say, with red
zone and black zone right now, you look at those
ends of the field, and his management tends to be

(41:07):
immature at times. He tries to hold onto the ball
too long or not throw the ball out of bounds
when he should take them, you know, when you should
manage the game better. And some of that may be
on Colorado asking him to do more of that, but
it does run against him just traditional you know, pro
football management at the quarterback position, that you got to

(41:29):
throw the ball away a little bit more, and he
just he was one of those guys that sometimes pushed
things a little too far into hero ball.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Matt The one thing that I saw on Tyler Shock
when I looked at your page on him, you said
the comparison spectrum was Matthew Stafford, which.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Is really high, really high.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
That's that's somebody you'd like to be compared to, all
the way down to Drew Stanton.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
That's a very cavernous with if you will.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
I got to ask, how do you determine that wide
of a spectrum for a player?

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Is it?

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Because he didn't have as many snaps as a lot
of these other guys, and obviously with the advanced age,
you would love to have seen him had more experience,
but the injuries prevented it.

Speaker 6 (42:15):
Yeah, it's a great question. And I love it because
what I try to do is I give you players
at it's a big spectrum. Sometimes sometimes it can be
a big spectrum. Sometimes it can be a narrow spectrum.
If it's a big spectrum, usually like this, it's because
the player is really has a boombust quality to his
game where you see moments with him athletically where he

(42:35):
throws the ball on the move and the big arm
and some of the mobility to create off structure. And
you say, there's some Stafford like Jake Cutler like skills
to him, and I have Jake Cutler, you know, just
directly ahead of him on that spectrum, and then Stafford's
like probably two to three notches above Cutler on that
or maybe a couple of notches above Cutler on that end.

(42:58):
So he's more on the lower end of that spectrum,
which is more Drew Stampon a good athlete who can
throw the ball, but he's got some things to work on,
and some of those things he's got to work on
are about pocket management when he knows that the pressure
is coming, Like Kenny Pickett back in Pittsburgh. You know,
he's with the University of Pittsburgh when he knew it

(43:19):
was coming, he handled it pretty well. When it surprised him,
or it was backside pressure, blind side pressure, things would
short circuit. And you notice that there's a little bit
of a slow pocket clock for Tyler Shook in the
way that there was a slow pocket clock for Daniel
Jones with certain types of pressure. And that's where I

(43:39):
think Shook has some failures there that we got to
be concerned about.

Speaker 4 (43:45):
All right, let's jump out at Paul. Are you good
on quarterbacks? You want to jump the running back here?

Speaker 6 (43:49):
All right?

Speaker 4 (43:50):
I want to jump the running back here. And it seems, Matt,
based on the way you talk about these guys, that
you're as high on this running back class as everyone
else I went through it. You have gent alone, then
you have six guys in your next tier. Then your
third tier has seventeen players in it from eight to
twenty five, and I got to imagine you can imagine

(44:10):
all those guys at some point being a starter in
the National Football.

Speaker 6 (44:13):
League at least having an opportunity. Now I look at
this way, I label guys in a way where I
have tiers like my first tier this year as a
franchise caliber starter, you plug him in and he's gonna
be a production leader at that position. Second tier guys
are guys that can start immediately. But you got to
imagine that probably sixty to eighty percent of the NFL

(44:35):
has one to two at least one to two guys
on their depth chart who have similar scores right now
or similar value of skills as the guys coming in.
So if an injury happens, or they like certain things
about this player more, or the contract's going to be
more favorable because you know, Leonard Fournette maybe on the
way out and suddenly there's a guy like James Robinson
in the background where morongos, we think he's skilled enough,

(44:58):
we can probably give that an opportunity. There's that guy's
in the second tier. The third tier guys are folks
that you can plug into the lineup and if you
really need them to start, you can, but you may
have to minimize certain things that they don't do well.
So there's a lot of guys like that in the NFL.
I mean, the NFL running back is like if you
were casting call for a movie and you decided that

(45:18):
the lead role could be a male anywhere between the
ages of thirty five and eighty. Now you got Jack
Nicholson and then you got Tom Hardy. Which one do
you want? You know, do you want Bennett Cumberbatch in there?
You know all that, you know, it's a broad range.
And then when you look at the body types with
these guys, it's like they can be the size of

(45:39):
Derrick Henry like a defensive end, or they could be
the size of a cornerback like you know, you know,
James Cook, you know, and they can get it done.
So it's a very diverse position. And that's why Sean
Payton last year with the Broncos goes, look, I don't
care where they're drafted. If I think they're talent, there's
Udfa's I'm more than fine with getting and letting them

(46:00):
Pete in an open competition, and he's shown that way
back in the day when he had Pierre Thomas and
he had you know guys you know, Chris Ivory and
folks like that competing with Mark Ingram.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
You know.

Speaker 6 (46:11):
So it's it's that way. So it's a it's a
fascinating class for sure, but I think the realistic look
is it may not be that twenty seventeen class with
like McCaffrey and Mixon and Camara and Dalvin Cook and oh,
Austin Eckler. I think was a UDFA in that class,
you know. I mean it was like eleven or twelve
guys who gave you that this class may be more

(46:32):
like five to seven. And then there'll be a bunch
of guys who give you that production. Like Tim high
Tower where you suddenly you look up after ten years
ago he had a two to three good seasons with
two to three different teams, and they were starter worthy,
but nobody really wanted them as their long term starter,
or a Justin Forsatt or a Chester Taylor, things like that.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
Matt.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
We've noticed that the NFL seems to have gravitated back
towards more of the run game, you know, as we
saw the top six teams and rushing the ball this
past year all made the playoffs first time in NFL history.
That's happened. When you looked at the tape of these
college players, these running backs in general as a class,
without getting to a specific guy, did you see enough

(47:18):
of that translation and transition to the kind of running
games that we're seeing now in the NFL that seem
to have resurfaced.

Speaker 6 (47:25):
Absolutely because the NFL is actually making it easier for
running backs to do their work. Because when we were
in the era of offenses that were more west coast
from center, not spreading the athletes out in alignments as much,
you leaned more on runners who ran inside zone and

(47:48):
outside zone, and those guys zone plays are more what
I call like multiple choice, where the preponderance of creativity
and skill and management is on the running back to
set up the blockers into the defenders, and they have
multiple choices, and that means that the savvy really has
to occur behind the line of scrimmage and that intellectual

(48:10):
skill to do that. In the instincts, gap runners are
more like filling the blank. There's one answer, and occasionally
you could veer from that one answer if you're you know,
but there's one answer, and the line is doing all
that work up front for you to marshall are the resources.
So you just take that athletic ability, whether it's size,

(48:31):
whether it's speed, whether it's a combination of both, and
you just hit that whole baby, and that's what and
then you get into the open field and then you
can be a little bit fancier with that stuff. So
in the college game now, suddenly gap runners are a
better thing now because back in the day, I remember
maybe ten years ago, I think it was Sevin Coleman
was seen as a great running back out of Indiana

(48:53):
or Darren McFadden years before that, but they were gap runners,
even though one of them ran outside zone at Indiana,
Sevin Coleman. When he went to Atlanta, Kyle Shanahan tried
to put him into that spot over Devonda Freeman, and
Freeman was a much better zone runner, and they had
to start putting gap plays in place for Coleman because
you know, if you ask him to hit one hole,

(49:14):
it's great, but if you ask him to do anything else,
he needs a compass, you know. So it's you know,
that was kind of the thing here was with these backs.
Now that everything's spread out and these defenders are lighter
and faster, well you can marshal your resources more to say,
we're going to hit this one hole and we're just
going to overpower these linebackers who are actually safeties, you know,

(49:38):
and just run through them. And I think we're seeing
more of that because now teams are using more multiple
looks or they're going back to the read game. And
now suddenly you have I won't even bring him up,
but we'll bring up. We'll bring up you know, Derek
Henry and Lamar Jackson is a good example. Good offensive
line and Lamar Jackson can occupy Pie one to two,

(50:00):
maybe even three defenders on a red play. And and
when you have that misdirection, and then that gives time
for the polling guard to get over. King Henry is
going to rule.

Speaker 4 (50:09):
You can bring up Stake one barking, Matt, It's okay.

Speaker 6 (50:13):
I know, I know. I've been talking about the Vengeance
Tour for about a year on my show, so before
before it happened. But I didn't want to hurt any
feelings because I'm still sore that I'm a Browns fan
and I'm just sore about everything these days.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
All right, second tier of players here, Matt, and you're
running back position group. There's some guys that I think
in a lot of other people's second tier. You got
Quinn Sean Jenkins in there, you got Damien Martinez in there,
Travon Henderson, Doan Samson I'm a huge fan of I like,
but there are two guys that you have in this
tier that I think most other people have on probably
day three. One is Taj Brooks, who I think is
a really good between the tackles running back with good

(50:49):
vision and balance. He just doesn't have a lot of
top speed. Then the other one is Saveon Williams, who
was a wide receiver but was using a lot of
running situations at t Tell me about those two guys
and why you are much more gangbusters on them than
maybe everybody else.

Speaker 6 (51:06):
Yeah, because one of the things that I love is
that I don't again, I don't have to look at
what where people are going to get drafted. I could
just look at ability and use you know, the one
hundred plus criteria points for each position to like just
grade him and see what I see. So with Brooks,
you know a two times thirteen hundred yard rush who
played about two hundred and thirty pounds and then lost
about fifteen pounds for the combine. So you could kind

(51:27):
of make like Le'Veon Bell to be a little bit quicker,
you know, at least in the forty time, because he
knows where the money is going to be made is
the forty times. But the really meaningful metrics for a
running back from what I've observed over the past twenty
years are the twenty shuttle on the three cone trill,
especially if you're going to work between the tackles, because

(51:48):
it's that initial burst to get to top speed or
that ability to change direction and get in and out
of cuts fast that matters. And his times are very
similar to two backs that I compared him to Bell
and Frank Gore, and Frank Gore, you know, is really
teaching tape.

Speaker 4 (52:05):
I like the Frank Gore comparison, Matt, that's really good.
That is a good comparison for him.

Speaker 6 (52:11):
I appreciate that, and it really is. He he bristles,
from what I've seen in an interview in the past
couple of weeks. He bristles at the idea of hearing
Le'Veon Bell, but he's He talks a lot about Josh
Jacobs with like going, okay, Frank Gore, Josh Jacobs, Josh
s Jacobs is a Frank Gore acolyte. We're good, you know,
but it's uh, you know, but it's you know. The

(52:31):
thing about Brooks is that I've jokingly nicknamed him Lemonade
because really, when you look at how many times defenders
got penetration into the backfield and just throw lemons at
the running play that was going in there, and him
his ability to make lemonade out of it by mitigating
losses or turning potential losses into games is exactly what

(52:53):
you want from between the tackles runners. It's why Gore,
who we brought up again, frustrated so many fans of
big playbacks like Kenyan Drake and Marlon Mack who came out,
who were much faster, much quicker at that point because
and much younger, and the coaches kept Gore in because
coaches knew that when when a play didn't wasn't blocked

(53:14):
up right, that Gore wasn't going to put them in
a third and fifteen or a second or you know
or you know, you know that type of situation. He
was going to keep the playbook open so that they
had more options to continue a drive. And Brooks has
done that better than anybody in this class. He can catch,
he can block. He's someone that has potential to be

(53:36):
a pretty good blocker at the pro level, meaning that
not only will he handle linebackers going through interior creases,
but he can even help out some even if he's
on an island temporarily against some defensive lineman. I mean,
he's not going to stone them, but he's going to
be able to help out in that range competently. And

(53:57):
you know, you see him run a lot of vertically
at Texas Tech as part of four vertz packages and
catching the ball over his shoulder. It's great that he
can track like that. I'm not expecting him to have
Austin Eckler like routes downfield in the NFL, but he'll
be a good checkdown receiver. And to me again, you know,

(54:18):
burst the acceleration and the changing direction quickness are better
than what is the more important things. And he ran
a four or five to two. It's not like that's bad.
Aaron ross Foster ran four six five, you know, so
I think we can handle Brooks there. And I just
think also people logo scout a little bit, and Texas
Tech isn't known for running backs.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
All right, Matt, I got to ask you about a
guy who, by the way, I know you have blinders on,
so you're not paying attention to the draft box. Yeah,
but somebody's telling us that Travis Hunter could go in
the first few picks. Okay, I just thought I mentioned
that to you just so you know that you're you're
study on him, and does it kind of raise your

(55:05):
curiosity as to you look at him as a wide receiver,
but you know he spent half the time being a
defensive back.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
Would you have liked to have seen him just be
a full time wide receiver? Do you think there would.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
Have been that much more left on the table that
he could have produced had he just been a one
position player.

Speaker 6 (55:25):
In the college game. No, And based on his ability
from what I've seen, No, because his route running, his
ability to win after the catch, what he does at
the catch point, the technical soundness of his ability to
set up breaks with his you know, with different conceptual setups.
His releases are. He has a good, you know, toolbox

(55:46):
full of releases. The only thing that I think he
really needs to improve upon is the most is against
press coverage, where you don't see a lot of that
in the NFL in the college game, So sometimes pairing
certain relief against certain types of leverage, not getting pinned
to the boundary as much. Things that he's gonna have
he's gonna face a lot more often in the NFL,

(56:07):
and most receivers do so he's going to have to
learn from that perspective. But I think in the NFL
this is where it's going to get complicated, because you know,
we heard recently that he's demanded, you know that to
play both sides of the ball, and that if he doesn't,
he'd consider retirement, you know, And that's just I think

(56:30):
that's a ploy from him to say, you know, I'm
really serious about wanting to do both, and you know,
I appreciate the fact that he's been able to do that.
We'll see what NFL coaches do with a twenty one,
twenty three year old and say, all right, we'll give
you some package as kid, and you can, but we're
going to give you one thing, one area to really
focus on, and then if you do that, well, we'll

(56:53):
we'll give you maybe we'll give you a little bit
more down the line, but you're going to have to
work with us here a little bit because and I
because you know, well the demands. We want you to
prove that you can do both in the NFL, because
the demands are going to be higher. And if he
does prove that, good for him. I would love to
see him be the first guy in a long time
to be able to do that. But realistically, I think

(57:16):
they're going to try and slow roll him to start
to start to see what the NFL is like and go,
do you realize now how much work you got to
put in as a receiver or how much work you
got to put into the defensive back to really do
both other than some of the package stuff we do.
So yeah, I mean I would love to see the
Giants get Hunter to pair him with Malik Davers, who

(57:38):
was the highest grade receiver I've had since Jamar Chase.
And then you know, I know that John asked about
Williams real quick and I'll just say real quick about
Williams as a receiver, I have him as a player
who could eventually contribute, if not start, He's got you know,
he's and as a runner. It was just the fact
that even though the packages were limited migrading system, you know,

(57:59):
if you have someone who can do a lot of
things at a high level, they tend to get graded higher.
If you have a player who does one set of
things at a super high level, they also can get
graded high. And although he only runs a lot of
gap plays and wildcat and things like that, his footwork
is ability cut back inside, his contact balance and power

(58:21):
were excellent. And his maturity to be able to hit
tight creases in the red area and manage the game, well,
we're very impressive. So then when you add the fact
that he can catch the ball and maybe be a
real contributor as a wide receiver, reminds you a lot
of Cordero, Patterson and Cordero, you know when they finally
figured out how to use him because he didn't translate

(58:43):
information well as a receiver to the field and you
use them more as a runner on gap plays. Wow,
what a player that guy could be. It was just
that he was older and breaks down a little bit more,
you know.

Speaker 4 (58:57):
Yeah, man, all that pull hit the wide receivers again.
And I want to talk about another converted player because
I don't understand why more people aren't highering this guy.
He's eleventh on your running back board, but I think
you think he can become a lot better than that.
He's only paid running back for one year full time,
and that's Brashard Smith at of SMU. I watch his elusiveness,
his ability to make people miss, he bounces off guys,

(59:18):
his contact balance, he's two hundred pounds He's not a
small guy. I think Brashard Smith has a chance to
be a really good even you know, maybe he's not
getting eighteen carries a game, but if you get him
fifteen touches between a receiver and a running back, this
guy's going to be a really impactful player at the
pro level.

Speaker 6 (59:36):
I'm right there with you. I mean, I loved what
I saw from Bishard Smith. I was super impressed what
he did from his I'm in Miami as a receiver
and returner and part time and situational running back to
being a full time running back at SMU. He went
from being like a soso blockers a wide receiver to
a compellingly promising blocker as a runner between the tackle

(01:00:00):
on pass protection where I'm watching him cut defensive linemen
with perfect form and you know, and actually try and
deliver punches and do the work that you want to see.
And then as you described, I mean, it's right on
the dot, I mean, very elusive. He has good contact
balance for his size. He reminds me in a lot
of ways of Aaron Jones. I honestly think Aaron Jones

(01:00:21):
was a better receiver than Smith was. I'm like, if
I'm going to put it on a scale of things.
Like you know, you can look at save On Williams
and go that's that's a receiver who also could play
running back. It depends on how they look at him.
I would look at Tyrone Tracy, who did a fantastic
job as a running back, you know, transitioning over the

(01:00:44):
past couple of years. But there's a reason why they
moved him to running back, you know. I mean, like
I think that he's he's probably on the lower end
of that scum and he can catch, but it's not
it wasn't fantastic, you know at Iowa, Whereas Smith is
a little high in that tier as a receiver, so
he can be a mismatch I think for teams, Whereas

(01:01:06):
I think with Tyrold Tracy, he's more of a mismatch
when he's working between the tackles and getting a little
some dump offs here and there than he is being
a downfield guy.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
We've talked over the last several years about how Ohio
State could be called wide receiver. You and Abuka is
a guy who you're listing as overrated talented, but you're
looking at the system and you're saying maybe he's getting
just a bit too much play. I'm curious about why.
Maybe you don't think he could possibly project into a

(01:01:37):
more well rounded role once he gets to the NFL.

Speaker 6 (01:01:41):
I mean, I think he can, but I think his
strengths really lies. I think there are people who are
projecting him as being a Moleak Neighbors type of number
one receiver on the outside who runs timing routes on
third and seventeen. The corner knows it's there, everyone in
the state knows it's going there, and he still wins

(01:02:02):
the play. You know, I think that's what they're projecting
from a guy like like he can give me some
of that, And I'm thinking no, I think he's more
like a you know, he's more like a Golden Tate
type of player who was very good with the Giants
and also with the Lions, where you can use him
as a flanker, you can use him in the slot.

(01:02:22):
But his strengths are really working across the field on
crossing and over routes and letting him win after the catch,
maybe the occasional slant, some RPOs, things like that. Yeah,
he can work some verticals occasionally and win a fade
rope for you and do that, But I don't see
him as a fantastic timing rop runner on comebacks, digs, curls,

(01:02:46):
who you know facing press coverage is gonna win that way.
So I see him as a good pro who can
start right away. And if you put him in an
offense like the Rams that runs concepts like the Rams do,
he's a good fit there, you know, if you ask
him to be something more than that, and maybe he

(01:03:06):
want them to be more of a deep threat and
think he can unlock some of that deep threat game.
He's more of a guy, a contributor type of guy,
like former Jet and Seahawk Jermaine Curse in that respect
in the deep game. So I think he's a good player,
but I think and he's a starter even like right away.
He could be a starter if he's on it lands
on a team that needs one, but I think his

(01:03:28):
ceiling is closer to what he already is.

Speaker 4 (01:03:31):
All right, man, And we've talked about this being a
really good day two wide receiver class, and I think
you have ten guys in that tier two so it's
a thick group for you as well. I want to
talk about a couple of the guys that just missed
the tiers on both sides, right, So Luther Burdens your
number one wide receiver, even ahead a Hunter. I had
some trouble with Burdens, so I'm curious to see what

(01:03:52):
you loved about him. Then you have Golden too in
that tier one, but Kyle Williams and Trey Harris didn't
get into that tier two. They're in tier three for you.
So I know, I just brought four guys. It's a lot.
What do you think kind of me? Those guys stand
out from the rest of kind of like the big
glop of guys in the middle of this class.

Speaker 6 (01:04:10):
Sure, and I may ask you again, remind me of
each year. Yeah, but that's okay, it's just me. I'm old.
But the uh but Luther Burden, I would say. You know,
the thing about him is that a lot of people
look when they do the stats modeling and they start
looking at players like Burden. They start looking at well,
there's a lot of RPOs, there's a lot of screens

(01:04:31):
and crossing routes. I don't really see him on a
lot of these timing routes. What differentiates him from Agmuka?
You know from that standpoint. And to me, what it
was is that when you study the games and you
watch last year, you watch this year. Though there was
more of it last year, I mean in twenty twenty
three than there was in twenty twenty four. Burden has

(01:04:51):
excellent releases, a really strong toolbox of techniques that he
uses in a timely fashion. He is someone that can
set up defenders with breaks on timing routes at a
high level. He may not do it a lot, but
what he does and the detailing that he uses in
those plays, you go, that's not luck. That's someone who's

(01:05:12):
worked at this craft.

Speaker 4 (01:05:14):
It's flashes that.

Speaker 6 (01:05:16):
You said, it's these moments. Yeah, and that's also And
then I guess the last thing I'll say about him
is that Land mcconukey got people all got just justin
Herbert all excited in May because he's like, this guy
understands how to run routes and uncovering zones like a veteran.
And that's what Burden does. He does that really well.

(01:05:37):
Like there's a game I think against Arkansas, you can
go find a highlight of where he runs an intermediate route.
He's facing a safety and he takes it downfield because
his quarterback breaks the pocket and he knows that he's
got to bait the corner inside and he's literally acting
like he's about to catch the ball inside and then
uncovers late to the outside for a touchdown. And you

(01:05:58):
see him do that repeatedly. You know other guys. Yeah,
Golden to me is kind of like he he's he's
one of those guys that at the worst case scenario,
he's kind of like a Jadeen Reid type who can
play multiple positions. He can give you some skill after
the catch. He he runs good routes and he can

(01:06:20):
win contested plays. So at the high end of that spectrum,
you look at and go, if he becomes a masterful
route runner on the pros, maybe he's more of a
flanker like maybe Tim Brown was back in the day,
you know, but I'd say he's more closer to what
Reid gives you, and if it doesn't work out as
well as that, he's more like a Lee Evans field
stretcher who you put on crossers and overs. Then we

(01:06:43):
you know the.

Speaker 4 (01:06:44):
Two guys that missed the teer, Trey Harris and Kyle Williams.

Speaker 6 (01:06:47):
Yeah, Trey Harris. You know there's some, there's some he
can be. He's good after the catch, there's some real
kind of like, there's legitimateses with his catch technique that
tend to trouble. That leads to trouble in the NFL.
A lot of guys when they have to extend, their

(01:07:09):
hands are too far apart and then they clap onto
the ball and then they're fighting the ball. And he
fights more balls, and people have given him credit for
They see the athletic extensions and they go, oh, that's great,
but they don't see the clap attack. And I noticed
that when guys clap attack at the college level, they
tend to do it even more on the pro level
with tighter coverage. His route running can be a little

(01:07:29):
bit better. But you know, I see him as a
guy who could be a better version or early in
starter of a Quentin Johnston if it works out. And
Kyle Williams is one of those guys that also clap
attacks the ball a lot, and he has more than
lapses with that. He has some he fights the ball
too much, But when he doesn't fight the ball, he's

(01:07:50):
very promising looking because that speed, that ability after the
catch I get it like he's that guy that he
can just quell some of the bigger lapses with his hands.
He could be a contributor soon.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
I want to go to the tight ends, Matt, because
there were two names in particular that from John and
we went to the combine.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
From the time that we were at the combine.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
All we have heard is that maybe Loveland could possibly
challenge Warren as the best tight end in this class
and what is supposed to be a pretty good tight
end class.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
And yet when I looked at your rankings, you had Warren.

Speaker 7 (01:08:27):
All the way down at tight end five, and you
had Mason Taylor, Jason Taylor's son, we all know, all
the way up to tight end two. And I will
say that that kind of caught me a little bit
by surprise.

Speaker 6 (01:08:39):
Sure, you know, and you know this is I always
joke in my in my pre pre draft publication that
I hate rankings, and I explained why. But the quick
end of it is that Tyler Warren is fifth for
sure on my rankings. But when you look at his score,
it's it's a score that legitimately is like if you
need to put him in the lineup and you're looking

(01:09:01):
to access his strengths. He can be a contributor right now.
You know it's but I just see. But because I'm
not scouting for a specific team, I look at Mason
Taylor and I see a guy who's actually a better blocker.
He understands how to position his hands on his feet
and deliver his hands so that he's not tipping off

(01:09:22):
or putting himself in a position to commit penalties. As
a route runner, he actually has better decceleration, better hip
mobility to run routes that you normally see tight ends
run underneath, breaking inside or back to the quarterback. He's
someone that makes very good plays in the passing game

(01:09:42):
against tight coverage or against hard hits. And he is
a more fluid mover after the catch who can make
people miss and also break some tackles. Whereas I look
at Warren and I know that at Penn State on
the film, it's like, Okay, they used him as a
running back, they used him a bit as a wildcat quarterback.
They used the downfield winning catches and things like that.

(01:10:03):
But I would say from what I saw of Warren
and how he was matched up, a lot of these
were mismatches that were schemed or they were, and they
were there schemed up against players that aren't very athletic,
and you're gonna see him forced to be schemed against
defenders who are much more athletic. I thought that he's

(01:10:23):
very mobile and fluid at the catch point, in the
same way that Michael Mayer was rated as one of
the top tight ends two years ago. But when you
really looked at his game, what you noticed is that
he was excellent in zone, which I think that Warren
will eventually get there. And he was excellent one on
one in compressed areas of the field. You know, if

(01:10:45):
you're just running a fade or you're putting them in
the red zone and he's got a one on one
against somebody, he can win there because he can body
up guys and win the ball in the air, which
Tyler Warren does really well. But then after the catch,
as a runner, I found Warren to be a lot
slower and a lot less explosive and and a lot

(01:11:08):
than other people may have looked at. And then there's
a blocker. He hugs people, he's not a puncher, and
I'm you know, I see him as a lead blocker
in a lot of instances or on the line, and
what they're asking him to do doesn't project well right now?
Can he learn it?

Speaker 4 (01:11:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:11:23):
I mean I've got him as a borderline immediate starter.
You know, he's not far away. He's in that in
that tier just below that. So if you limit the
kind of blocking you want him to do and let
him get out in the flat and run some people over,
or put him into a you know, a compressed area
the field and let him win one on one, he
can do that. You know, that sounds like a combination

(01:11:44):
of Dallas Clark and Tucker Craft, two pretty good tight ends.
But are we are we gonna call Tyler Warren the
next Blake? You know, see me the next brock Bowers.
Brock Bowers may not be ever be a great blocker,
but he mismatches everybody on the field as a receiver.
And to me, that's the difference. Like people are giving

(01:12:07):
Tyler Warren a grade that that if I graded him
that high, I would have as as high as number one,
especially where I typically grade wide receiver ones or tight
end ones or two's on my board. If they earned
that kind of grade, they can give you a mismatch.
I look at Mason Tat there's more of a Mark

(01:12:27):
Andrews type with a little more promise as a blocker.
You know, so you can see the difference between Mark
Andrews and Sat Tucker Kraft. Both are good, but one
is the middle of the field, downfield intermediate guy and
the other is let's dump him off or like do
some mismatches to get them in an open space and
let them rumble. And both are valuable, but one is

(01:12:49):
more versatile.

Speaker 4 (01:12:51):
I love Matt that you have fann In as your
tight end three Arroyos, you're tight end four. I think
both those guys are going to be excellent receivers and
you and you slide Gunner Hellman there too, right after
Tyler Warren. Why do those three guys kind of stand
out to you at the tight end spots guys that
can really help his receivers at the next level.

Speaker 6 (01:13:08):
Yeah, fan, And I was a big Sam Laporta fan,
and I had some scouts right me afterwards and laughed
very hard about what my assessment was about his potential
downside before the draft, and I said, well, well, and
I went back and read it and because they were like,
this is so true, and so many people don't realize it.
And I was like, what's that? And I went back

(01:13:28):
and read it, and basically Sam Laporta at his size,
I said, the downside with him is that he gets
drafted by a team where the GM and the scouting
staff and the coach are all at odds about what
they really wanted. And so the coach gets this guy
that he wanted a sixth offensive lineman who could filter
into the flat and be backed down, and they gave

(01:13:50):
him a glorified wide receiver who could be split outside.
So the coach is going to tell him to gain
twenty pounds and now he's going to render him ineffective.
And then at the end of the year, look at
the GM and the sky and staff and CC, I
told you not to draft me a wide receiver. He
can't play tight end in the NFL. And and I
had scouts literally just laughing and writing me about that.

(01:14:10):
And Fannin is a Sam Laporta clone down to like
the workout numbers and to the dimensions and what he
does well and what he does well enough. What he
does well enough is as a move tight end type
of blocker, an h BAC type of blocker, kind of
an an Ingram type of guy, you know, in that regard,

(01:14:32):
and what he does really well is run routes and
win the ball. And then when you look at Arroyo,
Arroyo's kind of that athlete where we didn't look at it.
We didn't see him run at the combine, but when
you watch him on tape and I can look at
mile prow Or and things like that, you're like, that's
the fastest tight end in this class. You know, he
is the he's the most explosive tight end in this class.
So if he can be you know, if he can

(01:14:56):
show a little bit more as a blocker, and I
think he has the body to do that, he might
be a surprisingly good all around tight end in the league.
If he can just maintain consistency. And there was a
little bit about work ethic before his ACL injury early
in his career that you know, there was some things
talked about with that, but it sounds like he's matured

(01:15:16):
some and so he's a promising player. He's probably a
little bit better, more promising because of his athletic ability,
but the techniques and skills aren't that far behind. In
helm he catches the ball, he gives you that kind
of Jake Ferguson Harrison Bryant kind of spectrum. If it
works out, it's Jake Ferguson. He can do a little

(01:15:37):
everything pretty well, but he's more of a receiver. And
then if he just seems to be a guy that
like is helpful to the team and every and he's
gonna be in the league for twelve years, but he's
going to be like their number three tight end, then
it's more Harrison Brant.

Speaker 4 (01:15:51):
Why do love for Terrence Ferguson, Man? I love Terrence Ferguson.
Come on, I know, I know, I know.

Speaker 6 (01:15:57):
He's a linear athlete. And so when you look at
guys like Mike Jisekei or Tevin Coleman, even as a
running back, to give that kind of comparison. Get him
in a straight line, give him a runway, and he's
like an eighteen wheeler going about sixty miles an hour
through a toll booth. Okay, I mean it's fun to watch.
And because of his fight, you can put the ball

(01:16:19):
up there and he can go up and he wins
some targets. He's got some mobility like Tyler Warren to
work away from his frame to catch the ball. The
difference between him and Tyler Warren is that he clap
attacks so much that he drops a lot of balls
that he shouldn't drop, and that like Jisekee, he you know,
he may have had a nice combine, but you know

(01:16:40):
when you get him out on the football field and
have him move his feet in the patterns that you
need him to remove him to release from the line
of scrimmage, to be able to make the first man
miss in tight space, to be able to win in
traffic and be dynamic like a Kelsey type or something
like that. He's like running in wet concrete. You know,
it's just he's not a mover in that way. He

(01:17:01):
can't bend, he can't drop his hips and his knees
to get him to sudden accelerations. And that means route
running's Limiting's not gonna be a one on one route
runner except throwing it over. So you look at what
Jessecke does. They move him inside out, let him use
his height to rebound, and it's useful, but are you
are you making him your third option in a progression

(01:17:24):
most of the time, yeah, or it's the you know,
it's that kind of thing. Jessecki's never gonna outproduce t
Higgins and Jamar Chase, and he was never out producing
who they had in Miami. And you know, but he
was a highly rated Penn State tight end who you
know he can catch, but he's not much more than that.
And I think that that's with the thing with Ferguson

(01:17:47):
is like you've got a scheme plays for him to
really show the awesomeness that he has. And you know
what happens with scheme plays. It's like we got it
scripted early, or we're gonna pull this out of our
pocket late, and then a team goes, oh, yeah, I
know that's coming. Then they got to go back to
the drawing board and do it all over again. So
it's like he'll give you some plays and fans are

(01:18:08):
gonna go, see, I told you. You know that guy's
really good. They need to get him on the field more.
But like Cordero Patterson, there's limitations of how you could
use him in that capacity, and that's what happens with
unfortunately with Ferguson.

Speaker 3 (01:18:22):
Paul, you got anything else for us, I'm all good,
thanks man, it's a great talking to you one.

Speaker 4 (01:18:27):
This was awesome. Man once again, tell the folks where
they can find your stuff, where they can get the guide,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 6 (01:18:33):
Yeah, you can get find me at Matt Waldman dot
com Rookie Scouting portfolio. You get a pre draft and
a post draft if you're a fantasy player. I'm a
senior staff writer of football guys. I've been there since
two thousand and nine, have been in the industry since
two thousand and three. So I give you a fantasy
a very strong fantasy slant too. But this book is used,
like I said, by media, scouts, fantasy fans, people who

(01:18:55):
do training of you know, of these pro athletes and
work with them. They look at it. So it's rooted
in football, and it's also rooted in a more unconventional look.
So you're gonna look at my rankings and you may go, wow,
that's crazy how some of these things are. But you know,
I've been doing it twenty years for a reason, and
this is you know, if I'm in my mom's basement

(01:19:17):
doing this, as some people would like to joke, you know,
mom ain't doing anything but bringing me some snacks occasionally.
I pay for everything else. So you know, so you
know there's a right, there's a rhyme to the reason,
even if the you know if, even if it doesn't
look like it at first, but that's generally how it
goes with with draft people like me.

Speaker 4 (01:19:36):
Matt Walden the Rookie Scouting Portfolio, We thank him for
joining us well with Kentley plattmath Bomb on the Big
bookgoff Live presented by CADI like the official luxury Vehicle,
the Giants from the Hackensack and Brity Health podcast, and
you'll keep getting better for Matt, for Kent, for Paul Tatino,
I'm John Shmelch. Enjoy your holiday weekend for those of
you that are celebrating, and we'll see on Monday. It's
draft week, baby, Let's do it.

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Big Blue Kickoff Live 4/18 | Kent Lee Platte & Matt Waldman

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Big Blue Kickoff Live 4/18 | Kent Lee Platte & Matt Waldman